How many Japanese products that were made 10 or more years ago, had quality problems right out of the box?
By the way, I can consistently measure better than -120dB in harmonic or IM distortion, and the equipment is only 20 ft from where I am typing now from my living room. I use a modified ST 1700B (similar to an HP339) with an HP3763 FFT based analyzer with 100KHz BW. Coupled together, they make quite a pair.
By the way, I can consistently measure better than -120dB in harmonic or IM distortion, and the equipment is only 20 ft from where I am typing now from my living room. I use a modified ST 1700B (similar to an HP339) with an HP3763 FFT based analyzer with 100KHz BW. Coupled together, they make quite a pair.
SY, thanks for agreeing with me about amplifiers... 
Your argument merely makes it clear that they're not all the same at all. If they were, then any of the higher power amps would work the same as the lower power amp you have does on the speaker that you say works best with the lower power amp. Eh?
Garrit, very impressive work!
Nice site.
Will take some time to go through it.
Anyone who has questions about amplifiers sounding the same, or conversely, awful rotten SET amps not performing as well as "well designed and unclipped" solid state amps ought to follow his link...
If ur sophisticated you are aREALIST !!!
I believe djk about the Levinson amp - wonder if that awful harsh grain that I always hear from Levinson stuff went away??
_-_-bear
Your argument merely makes it clear that they're not all the same at all. If they were, then any of the higher power amps would work the same as the lower power amp you have does on the speaker that you say works best with the lower power amp. Eh?
Garrit, very impressive work!
Nice site.
Will take some time to go through it.
Anyone who has questions about amplifiers sounding the same, or conversely, awful rotten SET amps not performing as well as "well designed and unclipped" solid state amps ought to follow his link...
If ur sophisticated you are aREALIST !!!
I believe djk about the Levinson amp - wonder if that awful harsh grain that I always hear from Levinson stuff went away??
_-_-bear
Sorry SY,
Rather I should have said "your post" stated...
for our non critical purposes, the same result... and right, ignore the particulars and argue on the semantics - are you a politician by day? (or night??)
unclejed:
And, -140dB can be achieved. I think National Semi's site discusses how they managed to measure the vanishingly low distortion of their latest opamps... apparently it isn't too difficult, but quite frankly that the method used should work kinda escapes me for the moment... but I am slow on the uptake and getting older every day...
_-_-bear
Rather I should have said "your post" stated...
for our non critical purposes, the same result... and right, ignore the particulars and argue on the semantics - are you a politician by day? (or night??)
unclejed:
And, -140dB can be achieved. I think National Semi's site discusses how they managed to measure the vanishingly low distortion of their latest opamps... apparently it isn't too difficult, but quite frankly that the method used should work kinda escapes me for the moment... but I am slow on the uptake and getting older every day...
_-_-bear
No, I was trying to make a serious point: there is no-one I'm aware of who has ever said that all amps sound alike or that all amps are the same. Not Bogeyman Greiner, not Zombie Lipshitz, not Living Dead Nousaine nor the Anti-Christ Olive; no-one. There's simply no argument there.
What gets people worked up is the idea that any differences will have easily measurable and predictable causes. There's a love of the idea that there are mysterious things going on, beyond the ken of reductionist, materialist engineering, and that those oxen-with-pocket-protectors who get published in JAES just stubbornly refuse to admit it. That's where the argument is.
What gets people worked up is the idea that any differences will have easily measurable and predictable causes. There's a love of the idea that there are mysterious things going on, beyond the ken of reductionist, materialist engineering, and that those oxen-with-pocket-protectors who get published in JAES just stubbornly refuse to admit it. That's where the argument is.
SY said:
Well, so far my experience regarding different sounding amplifiers, adheres real well to the research done by Nelson Pass.
If anyone is interested, he has told a lot about this work in many of his articles.
So bottom line is, yes you can measure a difference if you can hear a difference.
So far the problem seems to me, to be rather a matter of accepting that 0.00000003% THD is not the key element. I have seen bigger influence by even or odd harmonic distortion, than less or more.
Magura
It may seem like a oxymoron but they do! The magazine's split personality allows John Atkinson to do measurement tests with some very good test equipment. Although some may quibble about some of the tests and some of the conclusions. We could do a long thread on Stereophile's tests right or wrong.jlsem said:
You mustn't mention test equipment and "Stereophile" in the same sentence. Someone here may get the impression they measure the products they review.
John
tinitus said:
Having read the whole thread and posted very little, I'd say that SY's postings have been entirely consistent and logical.
Personally, I love the idea that nothing mysterious is going on. I like the fact that everything comes down to "reductionist, materialist engineering". I'll leave the mystery to the musicians, the reproduction of the music I'm perfectly happy to have in the hands of engineers.
This doesn't mean I don't like tube amps, or chip amps or whatever, it simply means that I believe their characteristics to be measurable and understandable. If two amps sound different then there there must be an explainable and logical reason, subject to analysis through the scientific method, surely? Either that or we are going to have to admit that it's all magic. And then we might as well give up altogether, how on earth would we decide what to build next?
My appology to SY if I have missunderstood and placed you in the wrong "camp"
Maybe when one get to a point where there is logical and understandable clear correlation between all the measurents...maybe thats where the magic is
But according to the threads topic it wont make much of a differense
I have mentioned that a good amp(setup
) is capeable of revealing the magic in music very believeable, while others produce the music in a very mechanical boring way
If you can measure and explain that I would like to hear about it...well, maybe some day it will happen
Maybe when one get to a point where there is logical and understandable clear correlation between all the measurents...maybe thats where the magic is
But according to the threads topic it wont make much of a differense
I have mentioned that a good amp(setup
) is capeable of revealing the magic in music very believeable, while others produce the music in a very mechanical boring way If you can measure and explain that I would like to hear about it...well, maybe some day it will happen
thevoice said:
+1
Some of the contributors here have a vested interest in mystification and discouraging people from building their own equipment, and would much prefer if a lot of others continued in ignorance to just buy their overpriced monuments to consumerism. Plus they're so used to being treated with awe and respect in some quarters ...he designs amplifiers, you know... that they think they're Merlin the Magician.
On a slightly different tack, some of those guys selling $1000 mains cables must be thinking - 'better get in there and muddy up the water some, or I'm going to be stuck with some expensive stock...'
Occams razor. Stick with the simplest explanation until there's damn good reason to think otherwise.
w
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