Always a pleasure to help someone starting out in the hobby.
Nice one.... great to see another pair live and kicking. I thought this "Fred" was dead.
Did you notice any increase in power handling by changing the crossover point from the woofer / P13 from 120Hz to 240Hz?
If you ever get a chance, add a chamfer inside the baffle behind the woofer as it helps with air flow behind the mid woofer. See this link:
chamfering driver holes
Nice one.... great to see another pair live and kicking. I thought this "Fred" was dead.
Did you notice any increase in power handling by changing the crossover point from the woofer / P13 from 120Hz to 240Hz?
If you ever get a chance, add a chamfer inside the baffle behind the woofer as it helps with air flow behind the mid woofer. See this link:
chamfering driver holes
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Couple of things here. Raising the X/O to 200 most certainly helped but the eye-opener was the amp, from a 3875 gainclone to the 4780 gainclone. I'm building a 100W SS and expecting a bigger better sound from it.
Regarding the chamfering, I have to live with this, with the way the tar felt is attached to the cabinet walls, difficult to pry. With the second pair I'm doing, North Audio cabinet with Sheldon Stokes x/o (XT25), I will probably give it a good chamfer. People have reported favourably, with regards to power handling of the P13, using higher order X/O's
Regarding the chamfering, I have to live with this, with the way the tar felt is attached to the cabinet walls, difficult to pry. With the second pair I'm doing, North Audio cabinet with Sheldon Stokes x/o (XT25), I will probably give it a good chamfer. People have reported favourably, with regards to power handling of the P13, using higher order X/O's
Sorry to be a total cad, but... Can someone summarize what the final driver selection and crossover schematic turned out to be? I feel like I've read this whole thread over three times, and still can't pin it down. Rabbitz, maybe? You definitely seemed to have had some valuable input in a number of places!
If the final woofer was, in fact, the Vifa PL18, has anyone tried substituting the Scan-Speak 18W that Madisound claims is a viable replacement?
If the final woofer was, in fact, the Vifa PL18, has anyone tried substituting the Scan-Speak 18W that Madisound claims is a viable replacement?
Summary of final built speaker
Tweeter: D27TG-45-06 alt D27TG-35-06
Mid-woofer: P13WH-00-08
Enclosure:
Vb=9.5 litres, Fb=66Hz, F3=60Hz, 47D x 76L port (post #194, 195)
Picture and drawing of 9.5 litre version
There is a smaller box earlier than this post with Vb=5.2 litres, Fb=74Hz, F3=80Hz, D39 x 96L port (post #102) which may more more suitable as a satellite with a subwoofer (disregard the crossover detail).
Drawing of 5.2 litre version
Crossover alternatives (post #179, 180):
Crossover alternatives
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/25590-diyaudio-reference-speaker-project-5.html#post1005310
Crossover alternatives
Post: diyAudio reference speaker project
Damping (different thread post #115, 116, 118)
Suggested damping
Tweeter: D27TG-45-06 alt D27TG-35-06
Mid-woofer: P13WH-00-08
Enclosure:
Vb=9.5 litres, Fb=66Hz, F3=60Hz, 47D x 76L port (post #194, 195)
Picture and drawing of 9.5 litre version
There is a smaller box earlier than this post with Vb=5.2 litres, Fb=74Hz, F3=80Hz, D39 x 96L port (post #102) which may more more suitable as a satellite with a subwoofer (disregard the crossover detail).
Drawing of 5.2 litre version
Crossover alternatives (post #179, 180):
Crossover alternatives
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/25590-diyaudio-reference-speaker-project-5.html#post1005310
Crossover alternatives
Post: diyAudio reference speaker project
Damping (different thread post #115, 116, 118)
Suggested damping
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We never did one with a PL18 even though there was some discussions about it. I can vouch for the Scan Speak 18W8531G00 and I use it in my mains. I feel it's a much better driver than the PL18 but I'm sure that would depend on the application and tastes.
I have built my own version of this DIY speaker using the P13WH-00-08 woofer and D27TG-35-06 tweeter.
Instead of making my own enclosure I used an LS3/5A flat pack DIY kit.
I mounted the front baffle forwards so it sits flush with the enclosure sides.
This increases the internal volume to about 6 liters, but when you fit the acoustic foam and bitumen sheet and drivers it is near 5.3 liters.
Port is mounted on the back and made out of 38.5mm/89mm PVC pipe. FB=75hz
I am using a MiniDSP active X-over with two NAD amps, settings are LR4 crossover at 3K and baffle step comp FC=319hz, Gain=6db, Q=1.
I am very happy with the result, midrange is best I have ever heard from a speaker, bass is obviously lacking but put them near the wall helps things a little.
Here are a few photos;
Instead of making my own enclosure I used an LS3/5A flat pack DIY kit.
I mounted the front baffle forwards so it sits flush with the enclosure sides.
This increases the internal volume to about 6 liters, but when you fit the acoustic foam and bitumen sheet and drivers it is near 5.3 liters.
Port is mounted on the back and made out of 38.5mm/89mm PVC pipe. FB=75hz
I am using a MiniDSP active X-over with two NAD amps, settings are LR4 crossover at 3K and baffle step comp FC=319hz, Gain=6db, Q=1.
I am very happy with the result, midrange is best I have ever heard from a speaker, bass is obviously lacking but put them near the wall helps things a little.
Here are a few photos;
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Nice to see a different implementation on this design.... well done.
Yes, they certainly lack in bass but make up for it elsewhere. A small music sub could always be added to extend the lower end if required.
The key to any design is the drivers and this combo are very good, flexible plus great bang for buck.
Where did you find your P13's? New or used?
Yes, they certainly lack in bass but make up for it elsewhere. A small music sub could always be added to extend the lower end if required.
The key to any design is the drivers and this combo are very good, flexible plus great bang for buck.
Where did you find your P13's? New or used?
Now, could someone who feels for it start to create a BOM for this with alternatives and options that can be agreed upon? I would realy want to build a bunch of these but lack the time to dig deeper into it. The name of the project has a bit to prove if you follow me... Now, there is of course a big pile of obscure elements and parts out there - please don't add these to the BOM. Let us drie out all snake oil so that this might become a real reference possible for almost everyone to build (given that they can pay for the parts). Let say that there will be 50 pairs built. Then we will have a base to tweak on if needed - but a reference is an reference - they should all be equal. If tweaked - it is no longer an reference until agreed upon and that the grand majority upgrades.
Now, as I see the project (very quick look) it is aiming at the segment posessed by Linn Kan, BBC LS3/5A and others. Bass is a problem - fast but not very low. Is there ideas of how to design an equally (probably) well sounding (I wouldn't call it a sub) bass enhancer?
I believe there is one that might fit on the LS3/5 pages... The important thing is to keep the sonic picture intact. If you only need more bass - buy whatever that fits your wallet!
Brgds
Now, as I see the project (very quick look) it is aiming at the segment posessed by Linn Kan, BBC LS3/5A and others. Bass is a problem - fast but not very low. Is there ideas of how to design an equally (probably) well sounding (I wouldn't call it a sub) bass enhancer?
I believe there is one that might fit on the LS3/5 pages... The important thing is to keep the sonic picture intact. If you only need more bass - buy whatever that fits your wallet!
Brgds
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The P13WH I got are brand new but are marked up as Scanspeak! Think they are making a limited run.
And another pic.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
And another pic.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Well I got them from here... and they are marked as Scan-Speak but I belive they are made by Tymphany?
Vifa P13WH-00-08 Mid Woofer
Vifa P13WH-00-08 Mid Woofer
Thank you Rich!
To all! That was one part of the reference if everyone agrees. Could we start a new thread or something where we gather the parts from inside and out? Or something that we can add to our signature for everyone to see when we post something? I strongly believe it is the way to spread good sound to the best price and surely we are going to beat LS3/5A in every level of accuracy.
We need to agree on a specification as I see it browsing through this hairy thread.
Brgds
To all! That was one part of the reference if everyone agrees. Could we start a new thread or something where we gather the parts from inside and out? Or something that we can add to our signature for everyone to see when we post something? I strongly believe it is the way to spread good sound to the best price and surely we are going to beat LS3/5A in every level of accuracy.
We need to agree on a specification as I see it browsing through this hairy thread.
Brgds
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If you wanted a reference speaker that beats the LS3/5A you may want to build the larger 9.2 liter version to achieve a lower F3 as the KEF B110 drivers have a lower FS (35hz) than the P13WH (60hz) .
I built my speaker using a LS3/5A cabinet kit which uses all the same materials; dead sheet, 12mm/9.5mm birch ply and beech battens.
I don't know how an 18mm MDF enclosure would compare with the classic thin walled birch ply construction?
I built my speaker using a LS3/5A cabinet kit which uses all the same materials; dead sheet, 12mm/9.5mm birch ply and beech battens.
I don't know how an 18mm MDF enclosure would compare with the classic thin walled birch ply construction?
For a start, this speaker was not meant to beat LS3/5A speakers and other higher end designs. To do that, you have to go to drivers such as the Scan Speak 15W8530 series as used in designs by Troelsgravesen or Zaph.
The OP was after a entry level reference point speaker and not a reference speaker that beats all comers. It was to be a good speaker to enter the hobby and be able to compare tweaks etc, try the various options plus allow a standard reference point when doing other designs.
The main parts of the design are:
Small 5.2 litre enclosure
Large 9.5 litre enclosure
Crossover alternatives
diyAudio reference speaker project
Crossover alternatives
Damping posts #115, #116, #118 (different speaker but applies)
The crossovers were designed with Mundorf M-Cap (standard white ones), Solen (alt Jantzen) 16AWG inductors, 10W NI wire wound ceramic resistors.
BTW, this design is virtually dead due to the drivers being discontinued. The tweeter has a new Scan Speak Discovery equivalent but I have no idea how close it is to the original Vifa and the P13 is no longer made but can be found occasionally.
For what is proposed you are better starting a new thread with drivers that are easily obtained globally and in a proven design. What I have found is you tend to get more takers and builders involved with an entry level speaker than a high end design as the cost of entry is more reasonable and not a barrier. There are plenty of high end designs out there for builders (some can be found at the designers I've already mentioned).
The OP was after a entry level reference point speaker and not a reference speaker that beats all comers. It was to be a good speaker to enter the hobby and be able to compare tweaks etc, try the various options plus allow a standard reference point when doing other designs.
The main parts of the design are:
Small 5.2 litre enclosure
Large 9.5 litre enclosure
Crossover alternatives
diyAudio reference speaker project
Crossover alternatives
Damping posts #115, #116, #118 (different speaker but applies)
The crossovers were designed with Mundorf M-Cap (standard white ones), Solen (alt Jantzen) 16AWG inductors, 10W NI wire wound ceramic resistors.
BTW, this design is virtually dead due to the drivers being discontinued. The tweeter has a new Scan Speak Discovery equivalent but I have no idea how close it is to the original Vifa and the P13 is no longer made but can be found occasionally.
For what is proposed you are better starting a new thread with drivers that are easily obtained globally and in a proven design. What I have found is you tend to get more takers and builders involved with an entry level speaker than a high end design as the cost of entry is more reasonable and not a barrier. There are plenty of high end designs out there for builders (some can be found at the designers I've already mentioned).
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