peufeu said:
I never said anything about "sounds better". I said that they measure better. I'm not going to get into the "sounds better" game. I am convinced that more people will buy the 10" than the 12", which I expect would sell more than the 15". The size and cost go up substantially with each step and price tends to drive everything.
I think that I gave the crossover points before. They are not that clearly defined, but if you define them to be where the woofer and tweeter outputs are the same then they are about 1200 - 10", 1000 - 12" and 850 -15".
It is not impossible to control these modes up to 800 Hz for a 15". The biggest problems are holes rather than peaks - far less audible. If you look at
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
you can see that the first big problem occurs at about 1800 Hz. This is about an octave above the crossover and at -18 dB/oct this peak is adequitly surpressed. You should also note that this peak is fairly directional so its effect off-axis becomes pretty small. It can certainly be done with a good woofer and a good crossover.
I'm not sure how to coordinate a "group buy" but as I said, I would have to have the deposits made prior to starting the tooling. Once there were deposits for a dozen, then I could move forward. Hence, it would be difficult for me to commit to a timing since I would not know if or when the minimum order would be in place. As I read it now there are six in the queue for the 12".
I almost never post, but now must! Dr Geddes' post of the other day (post1510961- see below) has had me thinking/stewing/dreaming. Now this morning there are mentions of other WG sizes and group buys.
I realize that Dr Geddes is working hard to get the 10" kit going, and I think that it is great and maybe his wisest current move. I have been reluctant to confuse the issue/complicate things with my particular wishes as I realize it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible for Dr Geddes as a one-man operation to accomodate such a disparate group's desires, locations around the globe, etc. Imagine the number of combinations/permutations of WG size/woofer size/kit configuration that could be generated!
My previous plan was to wait (as patiently as I could!) for a summa-sized baffle/driver/crossover combination to be available. After the above-referenced post my new dream is a non-routed baffle with 12" driver, 18" WG and either a passive crossover or the necessary filters that I could implement in a digital crossover.
If there was a group buy for a WG alone I would vote for 18", while acknowledging, again, that others have great reasons for wanting the 12"!
Well, I thought I would finally throw in my 2 cents worth. I have been watching/waiting for an opportunity to acquire some of Dr Geddes' technology/products since buying/reading his "Transducers" book a couple of years ago and the time (hopefully!) seems to be getting closer.
Best wishes
Bill Brown
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1510961#post1510961
I realize that Dr Geddes is working hard to get the 10" kit going, and I think that it is great and maybe his wisest current move. I have been reluctant to confuse the issue/complicate things with my particular wishes as I realize it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible for Dr Geddes as a one-man operation to accomodate such a disparate group's desires, locations around the globe, etc. Imagine the number of combinations/permutations of WG size/woofer size/kit configuration that could be generated!
My previous plan was to wait (as patiently as I could!) for a summa-sized baffle/driver/crossover combination to be available. After the above-referenced post my new dream is a non-routed baffle with 12" driver, 18" WG and either a passive crossover or the necessary filters that I could implement in a digital crossover.
If there was a group buy for a WG alone I would vote for 18", while acknowledging, again, that others have great reasons for wanting the 12"!
Well, I thought I would finally throw in my 2 cents worth. I have been watching/waiting for an opportunity to acquire some of Dr Geddes' technology/products since buying/reading his "Transducers" book a couple of years ago and the time (hopefully!) seems to be getting closer.
Best wishes
Bill Brown
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1510961#post1510961
Earl,
I know that speakers as furniture goes against your grain, but many non DIYers(and their wives) like beautiful veneers on their cabinets. It so happens that you have one of the best cabinet makers in the country practically in your own back yard(Southfield). You might look at partnering with Jim Salk to attract the non DIY segment of the market. With you providing the waveguides, crossovers and drivers and Salk making the cabinets you both might make some money. Don't under estimate the role of visual appeal in selling speakers. Salk is already well known. See the forum for his creations at Audio Circle. His website is http://www.salksound.com/
LAL
I know that speakers as furniture goes against your grain, but many non DIYers(and their wives) like beautiful veneers on their cabinets. It so happens that you have one of the best cabinet makers in the country practically in your own back yard(Southfield). You might look at partnering with Jim Salk to attract the non DIY segment of the market. With you providing the waveguides, crossovers and drivers and Salk making the cabinets you both might make some money. Don't under estimate the role of visual appeal in selling speakers. Salk is already well known. See the forum for his creations at Audio Circle. His website is http://www.salksound.com/
LAL
I agree with the push to start with your optimum first, Earl. While I can't argue with the fact that most regular folks want something invisible, I think that to start off, you should go with a "flagship" model. While I can't speak for everyone here, I think there are, in general, three types of DIYers. One group builds to spend the least money possible. This may be for various reasons, but simply not having any money is one. A second group is genuinely interested in understanding the technology, and builds because there is nothing available at any price that tickles his fancy. A third group, and this may apply to all groups, gets satisfaction in building, and is also looking for the most bang for the buck.
I think the first mentioned group would not be you biggest market, because well, they would not spend that much. The DIY types generally want to show off their work, so small is not the highest priority. Also, the ones looking for the best sound are, I believe, not as concerned about looks.
The point I am trying to make is that, to this group that may be your first and best foot in the door, you ought to be starting with your optimum. Get your flagship out there for people to hear and spread the word. THEN, when your product gets known, offer a smaller and cheaper one for all the wanna haves that can't or won't spend for the bigger ones. Use the number of interested people here to promote your flagship.
I think the first mentioned group would not be you biggest market, because well, they would not spend that much. The DIY types generally want to show off their work, so small is not the highest priority. Also, the ones looking for the best sound are, I believe, not as concerned about looks.
The point I am trying to make is that, to this group that may be your first and best foot in the door, you ought to be starting with your optimum. Get your flagship out there for people to hear and spread the word. THEN, when your product gets known, offer a smaller and cheaper one for all the wanna haves that can't or won't spend for the bigger ones. Use the number of interested people here to promote your flagship.
Thanks for all the support and the suggestions. Unfortunately, I can't really take any of them.
I started with the flagship idea with the intention to establish that and then move down in models. Didn't work. So I tried coming up from the bottom and this has had a lot more success. I'll stick with what appears to be working.
I was able to make the molds for the 10" myself, which was another reason to start there. I can't make any molds beyond the 10 because they are too big. So the tooling cost goes from small to exhorbitant. Before I commit to exhorbitant, like I did with the original Summas, I have to know that I won't loose money. That has not been shown thus far.
If someone can keep count, and then payments are made specifying the size to my paypal account, when I have orders for twelve I will have the baffle molds made, make the parts and send them out.
As far as doing them in wood, I've done that too. It ends up being so expensive that only a few millionares (like one) have opted for that approach. From what I can tell, people are mostly interested in apperance OR sound, but very seldom both. But if any of you out there are millionares who want all wood cabinets (they really can't be veneered because of the fact that there are no flat surfaces) I'd be more than happy to make them for you. The baffles for 15" Summas in solid wood would be about $4000 a pair. The final product ends up being close to $10,000 a pair if you have someone else do the work, but no less than $5000 a pair if you do the work yourself.
I won't hold my breath waiting on the all wood orders.
I started with the flagship idea with the intention to establish that and then move down in models. Didn't work. So I tried coming up from the bottom and this has had a lot more success. I'll stick with what appears to be working.
I was able to make the molds for the 10" myself, which was another reason to start there. I can't make any molds beyond the 10 because they are too big. So the tooling cost goes from small to exhorbitant. Before I commit to exhorbitant, like I did with the original Summas, I have to know that I won't loose money. That has not been shown thus far.
If someone can keep count, and then payments are made specifying the size to my paypal account, when I have orders for twelve I will have the baffle molds made, make the parts and send them out.
As far as doing them in wood, I've done that too. It ends up being so expensive that only a few millionares (like one) have opted for that approach. From what I can tell, people are mostly interested in apperance OR sound, but very seldom both. But if any of you out there are millionares who want all wood cabinets (they really can't be veneered because of the fact that there are no flat surfaces) I'd be more than happy to make them for you. The baffles for 15" Summas in solid wood would be about $4000 a pair. The final product ends up being close to $10,000 a pair if you have someone else do the work, but no less than $5000 a pair if you do the work yourself.
I won't hold my breath waiting on the all wood orders.
Ah.., I didn't realize the difficulty you would have in scaling up the WG size beyond 10" with your current production techniques. I also understand that your initial foray with the Summa really was to put your best-effort "state of the art" out there and we all certainly had the chance to support that effort with purchases.
While all hoping for our individual optimum implementations of your technologies (and now someone adds fine furniture finishes as an additional variable!- no offense to that poster's desires intended), I suppose our options are to go for the current 10" implementation as offered or wait patiently and hope that its success allows us other options in the future.
Again, best wishes,
Bill
While all hoping for our individual optimum implementations of your technologies (and now someone adds fine furniture finishes as an additional variable!- no offense to that poster's desires intended), I suppose our options are to go for the current 10" implementation as offered or wait patiently and hope that its success allows us other options in the future.
Again, best wishes,
Bill
agent.5 said:
I'll keep you guys in mind when I get an order.
Remember that its the whole baffle that needs to be in wood and it has large edge radii. Just putting a turned waveguide into a baffle where the grains don't match up looks pretty bad. You have to CNC the whole baffle from one solid block, and even then you have to correctly orient the layup of the wood or you end up with something that looks patched together and loose the whole beauty of wood.
The wood (lots of it) the layup and then the cost of CNC of a piece this size ends up being about $2000 each.
Earl,
Is there an economical way to say, cast the initial flare as a universal part. IOW, from the throat to the distance a 10" version would start its radius to the baffle?
Then, use different baffles for different sized waveguides to terminate the waveguide, and bolt the "universal" flare on the back of the baffle?
The cast part can be made with close tolerance where it is needed, and made in greater numbers for better bulk manufactering.
The plug could then hide any joint, and the baffle could then be made any size.
Is there an economical way to say, cast the initial flare as a universal part. IOW, from the throat to the distance a 10" version would start its radius to the baffle?
Then, use different baffles for different sized waveguides to terminate the waveguide, and bolt the "universal" flare on the back of the baffle?
The cast part can be made with close tolerance where it is needed, and made in greater numbers for better bulk manufactering.
The plug could then hide any joint, and the baffle could then be made any size.
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