Nah. Nobody would believe it for 2 grand. If it were a 25k option, some fool might just bite, though. Even if there was a big bold disclaimer that Dr. Geddes doesn't think it does anything, complete with A-B measurements. What audiophool wouldn't get hard at the notion of having "goldener ears" that his own speakers' designer and measurement gear?
Absolutely!! I'm not a cerified "Golden Ear", what do I know!? If you can hear things that Dr. Geddes can't well that really makes you something. Worth a couple of grand no doubt!
I have to admit, that after redoing the Summas a month or so ago, they actually are better than the Abbey's. Could I be happy with the Abbeys? Heck Yes! But does double the price buy you something? Yes, it does, not a whole lot, but it does. It's an amazing steep value curve when you get way out on the performance scale. It's take double the price each time it makes a minor but perceptable difference. That gets pretty expensive.
Its precisely this steep slope that the charlitans play on. It is steep and they know it, and they convince you that there actually IS a difference, heck, your on that very steep slope!! It takes a lot of cash to move up it even a little! Look at the YG Acoustics stuff!! What a joke! They use drivers that would cost me about $50 for the set, but the systems sell for $50,000. That's WAY UP the value curve! Either that or its some other curve that I haven't even discovered yet. Maybe its the "snake oil curve"!?
I actually built my kit, as some of you already know, with many of these over priced parts, but it was largely due to having them from previous attempts to make improvements, and I figured, if I have them, why not use them. The tweeters are wired with a mix of OCC copper wire with teflon insulation and pure silver wire with teflon insulation twisted up in a braid. The woofers have only copper, with different guages of the OCC solid core copper. Caps were upgraded with Clarity Cap SA caps bypassed by some film and foil STK polypropalene .047uf caps I had laying around. The series cap on the series resistor of the l-pad used for shaping and attenuating the tweeter was replaced with very expensive MIT Polystyrene caps. No idea if it made a difference, I was using up parts I had laying around that matched the values of the parts needed for the crossover. Gives good Audiophile fodder too.
Hmm, maybe my next upgrade should be to repaint them in a metalized ceramic impregnated paint, and then ground the speaker enclosures to shield them from EMI and interference.
Actually I've considered rebuilding the crossovers using charged coupled capacitors in the network a few times, but it's mostly because I'm curious and have always wanted to try. I'm sure the benefit would be small, but JBL seems to think it's of benefit on their uber expensive speakers. Maybe it's what is required for me to argue my speakers compare with 50,000 dollar speakers.
Hmm, maybe my next upgrade should be to repaint them in a metalized ceramic impregnated paint, and then ground the speaker enclosures to shield them from EMI and interference.
Actually I've considered rebuilding the crossovers using charged coupled capacitors in the network a few times, but it's mostly because I'm curious and have always wanted to try. I'm sure the benefit would be small, but JBL seems to think it's of benefit on their uber expensive speakers. Maybe it's what is required for me to argue my speakers compare with 50,000 dollar speakers.
Earl,
I really doubt that even the OEM cost of the Scan Speak Revelator drivers that YG Acoustics uses are $50 a set
. See the regular cost at the link below. It just would not make sense for Scan Speak/Tympani to do so unless Yoav Gonczarowski had the capital to purchase like 50K drivers all at once! FWIW, the YG speakers look really expensive to manufacture, use Mundorf Silver in Oil capacitors, etc...so the cost is high. What is the sound like? I don't know. But just because you throw money at something it doesn't mean its going to sound good (Its like throwing crap on a wall hoping it'll stick). I don't think that is what YG is doing but I am sure they are somewhere in the middle, like a lot of manufacturers. A few measurements here and some crap over there. Voila => Loudspeaker. See here for the Madisound price list.
Great job on the web site by the way. Looks awesome.
I actually like the look of the Harpers a lot with that octagonal woofer.Anand.
One would think all that money in production costs could buy some decent roundovers!
I've not heard the YG speakers, but there's nothing there to suggest that they'd be that interesting or special.
And you are absolutely right. That's why I said you can throw money at something but you may/may not get superior sonic results. There is plenty of fanfare for those speakers though. The measurements by the NRC appear to look better than many other "conventional" loudspeakers. And reviewers gush all over them (they do look kinda cool in a monolithic sort of way
). I've had one colleague who said they sounded far better than the higher priced Wilson's. But that same colleague is now an Abbey owner!!! Anand.
And you are absolutely right. That's why I said you can throw money at something but you may/may not get superior sonic results. There is plenty of fanfare for those speakers though. The measurements by the NRC appear to look better than many other "conventional" loudspeakers. And reviewers gush all over them (they do look kinda cool in a monolithic sort of way
Anand.
The thing is that I know those drivers and there is no reason that they should be that expensive. They are made in China same as almost everything else. It is a rare speaker that is NOT made there, but the B&Cs aren't. They are all still made in Florence.
True, but other well-designed speakers (for that idiom) measure as well or better for a lot less money. The Revel F12 for instance. Or, sensitivity aside (it's a really small speaker) the KEF 201/2, which strikes me as about as good as a pint-sized speaker can get when I heard them even though the price is crazy. Not YG crazy, but still crazy.
My, that's setting the bar low indeed. Wilsons have always struck me as having the tonal balance of a bad car stereo system: lots of midbass and sizzle, but no real lows and often a lot of muck in the midrange. Even with two zeros lopped off the prices, they would still be overpriced.
Earl,
I see where you are coming from. It of course doesn't cost $300 to make the Revelator driver just like it doesn't cost $300 to make a B&C 12TBX100. Profit margins are completely out of control, and Tympani wants to get richer...and I'm sure they've got great marketers cause their drivers 'look' really high tech.
Performance wise? Ah well. Look at that 9 inch Revelator woofer. Its a whopping low 82dB sensitive and you put it in a sealed box and you get an F3 in the 40's. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! All for a measly $300-$400. But people will tell you, oh it sounds so good!
Anand.
Can't disagree with that. I thought very much the same. Those KEF's have a pathetic sensitivity. How loud can you listen to them, 90dB? HAHAHAH!
Nothing has sounded as pure as the Summa's to my ears.
Anand.
Anand
Ah yes, but the 12TBX100 should be a lot closer to $300 than the Revelator, that's my point. The B&C has its cost in its materials, while the "Revelator" has its price because of its brand. I'm guessing that YG pays about $80-100 for the "Revelator" - tops. It is just not worth more. This is what happens when drivers become a commodity, as they are now. The prices have to come down to nearly the material cost because you can't really charge for "brand" and "technology" - everybody has them.
You know my example of the B&C compression driver copy from China right?, Almost the same performance, identical baskets, etc., the diaphrgams are interchangeable (and probably made by the same supplier) - About 1/5 the price.
May not be 100% fair
I dont deny its overpriced
Like many other drivers
But its surely not just plain ordinary chinese stuff
Seems to me like the prices on pro drivers is going up too ?
btw, I just bought a chinese 10", with cast chassis similar to whats used on the real stuff, price with all costs included, 30EUR ea
Alone the cost to transfer money was 1/3 of the price of one woofer
Cone is probably also good, and maybe voicecoil too, magnet/motor assembly probably NOT
But Im sure they could be made just as good, without much raise in cost, if they knew how, and cared about it
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This is absolutely the case.
I am now consulting for a Chinese transducer manufacturer, and let me tell you, they are novices at basic engineering. Their best guy was eduated in EU, but even he is only average as far as the level of expertise that I am used to in the US. If they ever start to really learn this area they will wipe out everybody. But they no more want to learn the details than anyone that I know wants to teach them. I have tried and tried to arrange to teach courses in China - not the slightest interest.
Thats strange
Just the other day I heard a man say that what makes the chinese different and good to work with, is their eager to learn
They desperately want to compete with the rest of the world
Maybe its different in other places of china
But fact is that many speaker manufactors have their factory in china, and it have been so fore many years
But time is money everywhere in the world
And ofcourse, when I can buy a 10" woofer with solid alu chassis in Germany fore 30EUR, theres not much left fore materials or workers
So maybe its a bit more complicated
One issue, and might be the most important, could be that a man who do not listen to music at all will never know what it takes to produce the quality we desire
And the same thing if he only listens to traditional chinese stuff
He has no change of knowing, and might not even understand the sense of it, ever
And to be fair, it is quite stupid to use very poor workers to make highend stuff
And we have to admit, it is a pretty stupid hobby
But we like it, as we like many other strange things
Ofcourse they cant understand thats what we do
Just the other day I heard a man say that what makes the chinese different and good to work with, is their eager to learn
They desperately want to compete with the rest of the world
Maybe its different in other places of china
But fact is that many speaker manufactors have their factory in china, and it have been so fore many years
But time is money everywhere in the world
And ofcourse, when I can buy a 10" woofer with solid alu chassis in Germany fore 30EUR, theres not much left fore materials or workers
So maybe its a bit more complicated
One issue, and might be the most important, could be that a man who do not listen to music at all will never know what it takes to produce the quality we desire
And the same thing if he only listens to traditional chinese stuff
He has no change of knowing, and might not even understand the sense of it, ever
And to be fair, it is quite stupid to use very poor workers to make highend stuff
And we have to admit, it is a pretty stupid hobby
But we like it, as we like many other strange things
Ofcourse they cant understand thats what we do
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I have more than normal contact with the Chinese, my wife is Chinese. I wouuld say that they are "eager to please". But spending money on a class that does not make you boss more money NEXT WEEK will not please him. They have an even shorter time horizon for payback than we do here. But if they are students, then yes, they are very eager to learn, because they want the best grade.
They are also eager to get your knowledge, as long as they don't have to pay for it. They recognize the value of knowledge and free is always a good value. But a hunger for knowledge for the sake of simply knowing more - no, I do not see that in the Chinese (in general, on the Mainland). They only want to know enough to be successful and have no hunger for more than that.
Well, We have seen documentary from chinese factories where hundreds of women are working
Locked up, until they are permitted to go home
They live there, eat there, sleep there, gate locked, cant leave
That is, if they want the money, which is probably just enough to keep the famely from hunger
Surely no place fore making quality products
Its slavery
Locked up, until they are permitted to go home
They live there, eat there, sleep there, gate locked, cant leave
That is, if they want the money, which is probably just enough to keep the famely from hunger
Surely no place fore making quality products
Its slavery
While I'm sure such places exist, I've toured numerous factories in China where that was definitely not the case. The workers are underpaid, I won't deny that, but they were not in a situation I would call slavery, they weren't even as bad as the Sweat shops in the United States or Italy. The tube amplifier factory I toured looked akin to what I have seen here in the U.S. People were building amps in rows, for the most part they built them from start to finish in groups. The owners had a general interest in their product, and the engineer's seemed passionate about music reproduction. The biggest problem was that most of the employees assembling these amps were not engineers, and they had no quality control of any sort. With such little engineering oversight, it was very easy for the wrong values to be soldered into these point to point amps, and for it to never get picked up. The only QC was a visual inspection of the finished product, and it was plugged in and allowed to stay plugged in for about half an hour. If it didn't catch on fire or smoke, it was packed up. No measurements were taken, no speakers hooked up, not even samples were being pulled from the assembly groups.
The other factory I toured was a place that built high end modern interior decor, furniture, cabinets, etc. This was also a very nice factory with very modern facilities. They had their own design team on staff, production engineers, assembly, etc. They seemed to have a similar QC issue, but visual inspections can often be acceptable for things like cabinets or chairs. I also was told the average pay for the assembly people, as well as starting pay, and ability to move up, and it was very comporable, given the difference in cost of living, to what an assembly person would make here. I was pleasantly surprised.
While I'm as white American as White American gets, my girlfriend is Chinese, and I was in China with her as well as some friends from my program, of the people touring the facility, I was the only person who was not Chinese, and the only person who didn't speak Chinese. My friends translated for me, so it was my guess that we weren't being shown "what they want us to see," but what it's really like for these factories. This was in the Shenzhen/Guangdong industrial area. I really think that there is some negative press over China's factories that are portraying things as being worse than they are, as a whole. American factories are not all treats either, we still have sweat shops, we have many very old factories with unacceptable working conditions, etc.
The other factory I toured was a place that built high end modern interior decor, furniture, cabinets, etc. This was also a very nice factory with very modern facilities. They had their own design team on staff, production engineers, assembly, etc. They seemed to have a similar QC issue, but visual inspections can often be acceptable for things like cabinets or chairs. I also was told the average pay for the assembly people, as well as starting pay, and ability to move up, and it was very comporable, given the difference in cost of living, to what an assembly person would make here. I was pleasantly surprised.
While I'm as white American as White American gets, my girlfriend is Chinese, and I was in China with her as well as some friends from my program, of the people touring the facility, I was the only person who was not Chinese, and the only person who didn't speak Chinese. My friends translated for me, so it was my guess that we weren't being shown "what they want us to see," but what it's really like for these factories. This was in the Shenzhen/Guangdong industrial area. I really think that there is some negative press over China's factories that are portraying things as being worse than they are, as a whole. American factories are not all treats either, we still have sweat shops, we have many very old factories with unacceptable working conditions, etc.
Matt
Agreed. Those stories are ridiculous. The Chinese are no so industrious and ambitous as Americans, because the system takes it out of you, but there is no real mistreatment. Neglect and negligence perhaps, but no real mistreatment. The girls do live and work at the factories, but they are not slaves by any means. The gates are locked at a certain time, just like a girls dorm. The worst conditions that I saw was a plant in Pan-Yu. It was a Japanese plant with all Japanese management and Chinese workers. Foster Electric - your know Fostex. The Japanese don't show the Chinese much respect that is for sure. Never have. Take Nanjing for example ...
Agreed. Those stories are ridiculous. The Chinese are no so industrious and ambitous as Americans, because the system takes it out of you, but there is no real mistreatment. Neglect and negligence perhaps, but no real mistreatment. The girls do live and work at the factories, but they are not slaves by any means. The gates are locked at a certain time, just like a girls dorm. The worst conditions that I saw was a plant in Pan-Yu. It was a Japanese plant with all Japanese management and Chinese workers. Foster Electric - your know Fostex. The Japanese don't show the Chinese much respect that is for sure. Never have. Take Nanjing for example ...
I've often been shocked by the pride and prejiduce that takes place amongst the Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, and Japanese. As I understand things, all of these culturals were greatly influenced by ancient Chinese culture, but were developed in their own unique and isolated ways for well over 2-3000 years now. A popular tea in Taiwan is known as Zhu Cha, it's a tea I knew as a Chinese green tea, when I called it this to an older Taiwanese Gentlemen he was first impressed that I knew of it, and second offended that I would call it Chinese. I also have a love for Japanese kitchen knives, as I feel they are among the finest crafted cutting utensils around. The steel making/knife making industry that influenced the ancient japanese art started in China, but I think most would agree that Japan does it better. Don't ever let someone from China catch you saying anything even close to that. My girlfriends mom reamed me out when I mentioned something about picking up a new hand made kitchen knife from japan. As far as she is concerned, Japan raped the Chinese culture, stole their traditions, and everything we love about the Japanese is really Chinese, and so, we should really associate it with the Chinese. There really seems to be a surprisingly large amount of animosity between China and Japan.
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