If you go fully active, then a speaker like your dream speaker would require 4 stereo amplifiers to get 8 channels of amplification, or you could get a couple of 5 channel theater style amps and use the 2 spare channels for subs.
2 DSP and DRC are digital signal processing and digital room correction. You can do a lot more with digital than you can with passive, and can do a lot of room correction (don't over look room treatments..which you have not even mentioned yet. A lot of your budget should be set aside for that anyway, do NOT over look it!)
Just by the by, I have room treatment and run a four way plus subs using two deqx units.
3. Even iof you mains 'seem' yo go low enough, don't discount adding subs. Done properly, there is an 'indescribable' definite benefit. Seriously, IF you honestly do like what you have now, and they are very capable, I'd certainly consider adding subs, doing room treatment, and getting some good dsp with that budget. All depends on the mains you have now.
And, that you are into diy then you can get very capable subs indeed compated to commercial offerings, pennies ion the dollar type stuff.
4 not a problem. My room is 9m*5m*5.1m, and then some (odd shaoed room I guess)
6 Yes, the split box. That only has use if you actually place the subs/woofers in a different location in the room. Else it may as well be a single box, otherwise you are just getting extra complexity, but maybe better looks?? Given the pic you have and nothing else to go on, those are 'just' woofers, and so cannot be placed in a different location (they have to meet the mids you see), so no benefit at all from the split box, tho no doubt a good marketing department could convince you otherwise!
So in this cae, NO, definitely not better sound if they were split and located differently! Even then, what are you going to put the head on?? You need to make stands yada yada. Think you might have the wrong idea on that one.
Yep you'll need extra amps., active is kinda defined as any driver connected directly to an amp. So fully active means as many amps as driven drivers. You can do it in stages if you wish, add the subs for now (with it's own amp), keep the passive crossover in the mains. Maybe later make the mains active too.
BTW, I don't buy the 'active is necessarily/always better than passive'. If you have a good well sorted passive crossover, and you like it, personally I'd stick with that. Going active per se (with behringer etc etc) I don't think brings as much benefits as theory says it should.
BUT, using good dsp active does, but that is another ball game.
Just by the by, I have room treatment and run a four way plus subs using two deqx units.
3. Even iof you mains 'seem' yo go low enough, don't discount adding subs. Done properly, there is an 'indescribable' definite benefit. Seriously, IF you honestly do like what you have now, and they are very capable, I'd certainly consider adding subs, doing room treatment, and getting some good dsp with that budget. All depends on the mains you have now.
And, that you are into diy then you can get very capable subs indeed compated to commercial offerings, pennies ion the dollar type stuff.
4 not a problem. My room is 9m*5m*5.1m, and then some (odd shaoed room I guess)
6 Yes, the split box. That only has use if you actually place the subs/woofers in a different location in the room. Else it may as well be a single box, otherwise you are just getting extra complexity, but maybe better looks?? Given the pic you have and nothing else to go on, those are 'just' woofers, and so cannot be placed in a different location (they have to meet the mids you see), so no benefit at all from the split box, tho no doubt a good marketing department could convince you otherwise!
So in this cae, NO, definitely not better sound if they were split and located differently! Even then, what are you going to put the head on?? You need to make stands yada yada. Think you might have the wrong idea on that one.
Yep you'll need extra amps., active is kinda defined as any driver connected directly to an amp. So fully active means as many amps as driven drivers. You can do it in stages if you wish, add the subs for now (with it's own amp), keep the passive crossover in the mains. Maybe later make the mains active too.
BTW, I don't buy the 'active is necessarily/always better than passive'. If you have a good well sorted passive crossover, and you like it, personally I'd stick with that. Going active per se (with behringer etc etc) I don't think brings as much benefits as theory says it should.
BUT, using good dsp active does, but that is another ball game.
I would investigate the multiple sub approach if you want good bass for rock music (or any other music) it is the only way to "High End" Sound.
Markus a member here did a nice write up on multiple subwoofers. There are also threads on the topic here.
mehlau.net > audio > multisub
Markus a member here did a nice write up on multiple subwoofers. There are also threads on the topic here.
mehlau.net > audio > multisub
This is what I have gathered from the people that have compared a lot of audio stuff.
open baffle or horns are best, probably AMT's too, but I have experience with that. Boxes are only for <40hz or whatever.
What I would do is the following:
buy a mega silent PC
buy a asynchronous multichannel usb-> i2s 24/196 system
Buy a 8 channel ESS sabre dac
Buy/download good software for a digital crossover/dsp
Buy a multichannel volume control
buy some amps
buy some raal dipole tweeters for >3khz
buy a alnico or field coil paper mid, supravox maybe, cheaper option= PHL 1120 for 300-3khz
buy 2x15 inch per channel open baffle bass for 50-300hz maybe altec 416 or 515? maybe lambda?
Buy some closed or TL subwoofers for <50hz
Let a professional wood worker make some nice open baffle panels
thats an active open baffle system
BTW: If you want to buy a kit, buy a linkwitz orion and a lot of good wine, maybe send me a bottle for helping you
open baffle or horns are best, probably AMT's too, but I have experience with that. Boxes are only for <40hz or whatever.
What I would do is the following:
buy a mega silent PC
buy a asynchronous multichannel usb-> i2s 24/196 system
Buy a 8 channel ESS sabre dac
Buy/download good software for a digital crossover/dsp
Buy a multichannel volume control
buy some amps
buy some raal dipole tweeters for >3khz
buy a alnico or field coil paper mid, supravox maybe, cheaper option= PHL 1120 for 300-3khz
buy 2x15 inch per channel open baffle bass for 50-300hz maybe altec 416 or 515? maybe lambda?
Buy some closed or TL subwoofers for <50hz
Let a professional wood worker make some nice open baffle panels
thats an active open baffle system
BTW: If you want to buy a kit, buy a linkwitz orion and a lot of good wine, maybe send me a bottle for helping you
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If money would't matter at all, this would be my dream loudspeaker system:
Satellites:
Hobby Hifi El Niño (2-way-speaker with Jantzen Audio JA-8008 HES and Mundorf HS-Devices 2510c), altered to 2,5-ways, closed, granite enclosure, no corners and edges.
Subs:
Humble Homemade Hifi Serious Sub (Precision Devices PD.2150)
The whole system activated, time alignment/room correction and what have you.
Satellites:
Hobby Hifi El Niño (2-way-speaker with Jantzen Audio JA-8008 HES and Mundorf HS-Devices 2510c), altered to 2,5-ways, closed, granite enclosure, no corners and edges.
Subs:
Humble Homemade Hifi Serious Sub (Precision Devices PD.2150)
The whole system activated, time alignment/room correction and what have you.
For very powerful PC base dsp software look here.
And may I also suggest you look at my open baffle, dipole designs.
While not a popular or as highly promoted as the Orion they offer a similar level of performance. And they can be build using analog or DSP crossovers.
And may I also suggest you look at my open baffle, dipole designs.
While not a popular or as highly promoted as the Orion they offer a similar level of performance. And they can be build using analog or DSP crossovers.
1. Dynamic drivers emit approximately spherical radiation - it's a design bitch to get the apparent centers of the spheres for multiple drivers to coincide. It can be done for a listening sweet spot, and for some frequencies, but because real drivers polar patterns and phase vary with frequency, it can't be fully realized, only approximated. The more drivers you have, the more design compromises you have to make.
2. Your ears are most sensitive in the mid range (Fletcher Munson); by having one driver that covers 500-5000 Hz (preferably 200-8000), better performance can be achieved. It's easier to make a 3-way system sound better than most 2-way systems, by moving the crossover (electrical and physical) outside the midrange. john k's NAOII is an excellent example of how well this can be done, and also the complexity required to achieve it (kudos to John K). His polar frequency plot shows the remaining inaccuracies in his speakers, and that will add some unavoidable coloration that is room dependent - how close to anechoic is YOUR listening room? Have you taken into account your furniture and guests?
3. Practical listening rooms have 3 surfaces that interact differently with the off-axis radiation - ceiling, floor, and walls. About the only practical choice for acoustic treatment of the floor is a rug, and that will only affect the higher frequencies. The walls and ceiling can be modified as much as you want and can afford, and for many there is a third design parameter - the Wife Acceptance Factor. Do you want your room to disappear, or is it enough that it be unobtrusive?
3a. Early reflections confuse (annoy?) our psychoacoustic perception. Delayed reflections give us subconscious cues about our surroundings. The evolution of our subconscious aural processing gives us the ability to differentiate small important signals in an environment of other noises. Our ancestors that heard the twig snapped by another predator against the background noise of the heard of wildebeest survived; their comrades that didn't hear that noise became someone's lunch. As a consequence, if you take a person with normal hearing, blindfolded, into different environments, they will recognize, at an instinctual level, various parameters - size, clutter, openness, location and type of sound sources. How many of you have noticed the change in acoustic environment in your home when the power fails, and your fridge, freezer, fans, air conditioner, and the neighbors noise sources all stop at once, even though you weren't conscious that you were listening to and filtering them out of your consciousness?
4. The evolution of our hearing that gave us the ability to pick out small, important signals against a complex sound field also gives us the ability easily recognize (and appreciate) different musical instruments. Almost anyone can tell a bassoon from a violin, even when played through the crappiest molded plastic transistor radio. Unfortunately, this also gives us the ability to recognize that Nearfield Pipedreams($$$$), Klipsch Palladiums($$$), Martin Logan CLX($$$$), Paradigm Signature($$), and Linkwitz Orion clones($$) all sound recognizably different, although all sound much better than a lot of the high end crap on the market. (In my not so humble opinion - YMMV)
None of them sound like a live performance in your living room - I've listened live to violin(complex harmonic structure), banjo(transients), acoustic guitar, and bagpipes(LOUD) - no recording, regardless of the speaker, would be mistaken for the live sound. Some systems will be listenable.
I prefer line sources over point sources. They minimize the effect of early reflections from the floor, and don't excite vertical room resonances. The 1/R as opposed to 1/R^2 drop in soundfield makes for a deeper sweet spot - I tend to move around instead of sitting in one place, and have others with me (Fletcher Munson loudness compensation should ideally be adjusted to match your speaker efficiency and LF room gain). One listening test I apply to speakers is standing up - its amazing how many high end speakers change radically when you do this, but line sources don't have this problem.
Proper lateral positioning and orientation can limit early reflections from the walls preserving the transient response(aka "fast", "crisp", "bright" sound) and soundstage. Late reflections from the opposite walls, and if the room is deep enough(mine's 28 ft/9m), dipole reflections from the back wall minimize small environment perception(aka add "spaciousness", "air").
If I had your budget(even 1/3 your budget), I'd try Bohlender Graebner RD75 ribbons, mated with 9 Audax HM210C0 8", in a dipole design, electronic crossover & biamped. I'd make the baffle out of MDF, with honey onyx or black labradorite surface glued on with a lossy compliant adhesive - V shaped, rounded corners. A higher end Nearfield Pipedreams/Martin Logan clone, if you will. I'd keep my Velodyne F1500 for below 80 Hz, or buy a Velodyne DD18 (or 2 &:>)
Alas, I'm retired, and my budget runs more towards "what's the best I can do for less than $1000". I'm currently using a pair of the small Maggies (MMG) that I inherited from my brother. Since my wife has passed away, I will upgrade to the MG3's I have. An audiophile friend and I have built a pair of curved electrostatics that sound pretty good, probably better than even the larger Maggies, & I may build an improved pair of those.
2. Your ears are most sensitive in the mid range (Fletcher Munson); by having one driver that covers 500-5000 Hz (preferably 200-8000), better performance can be achieved. It's easier to make a 3-way system sound better than most 2-way systems, by moving the crossover (electrical and physical) outside the midrange. john k's NAOII is an excellent example of how well this can be done, and also the complexity required to achieve it (kudos to John K). His polar frequency plot shows the remaining inaccuracies in his speakers, and that will add some unavoidable coloration that is room dependent - how close to anechoic is YOUR listening room? Have you taken into account your furniture and guests?
3. Practical listening rooms have 3 surfaces that interact differently with the off-axis radiation - ceiling, floor, and walls. About the only practical choice for acoustic treatment of the floor is a rug, and that will only affect the higher frequencies. The walls and ceiling can be modified as much as you want and can afford, and for many there is a third design parameter - the Wife Acceptance Factor. Do you want your room to disappear, or is it enough that it be unobtrusive?
3a. Early reflections confuse (annoy?) our psychoacoustic perception. Delayed reflections give us subconscious cues about our surroundings. The evolution of our subconscious aural processing gives us the ability to differentiate small important signals in an environment of other noises. Our ancestors that heard the twig snapped by another predator against the background noise of the heard of wildebeest survived; their comrades that didn't hear that noise became someone's lunch. As a consequence, if you take a person with normal hearing, blindfolded, into different environments, they will recognize, at an instinctual level, various parameters - size, clutter, openness, location and type of sound sources. How many of you have noticed the change in acoustic environment in your home when the power fails, and your fridge, freezer, fans, air conditioner, and the neighbors noise sources all stop at once, even though you weren't conscious that you were listening to and filtering them out of your consciousness?
4. The evolution of our hearing that gave us the ability to pick out small, important signals against a complex sound field also gives us the ability easily recognize (and appreciate) different musical instruments. Almost anyone can tell a bassoon from a violin, even when played through the crappiest molded plastic transistor radio. Unfortunately, this also gives us the ability to recognize that Nearfield Pipedreams($$$$), Klipsch Palladiums($$$), Martin Logan CLX($$$$), Paradigm Signature($$), and Linkwitz Orion clones($$) all sound recognizably different, although all sound much better than a lot of the high end crap on the market. (In my not so humble opinion - YMMV)
None of them sound like a live performance in your living room - I've listened live to violin(complex harmonic structure), banjo(transients), acoustic guitar, and bagpipes(LOUD) - no recording, regardless of the speaker, would be mistaken for the live sound. Some systems will be listenable.
I prefer line sources over point sources. They minimize the effect of early reflections from the floor, and don't excite vertical room resonances. The 1/R as opposed to 1/R^2 drop in soundfield makes for a deeper sweet spot - I tend to move around instead of sitting in one place, and have others with me (Fletcher Munson loudness compensation should ideally be adjusted to match your speaker efficiency and LF room gain). One listening test I apply to speakers is standing up - its amazing how many high end speakers change radically when you do this, but line sources don't have this problem.
Proper lateral positioning and orientation can limit early reflections from the walls preserving the transient response(aka "fast", "crisp", "bright" sound) and soundstage. Late reflections from the opposite walls, and if the room is deep enough(mine's 28 ft/9m), dipole reflections from the back wall minimize small environment perception(aka add "spaciousness", "air").
If I had your budget(even 1/3 your budget), I'd try Bohlender Graebner RD75 ribbons, mated with 9 Audax HM210C0 8", in a dipole design, electronic crossover & biamped. I'd make the baffle out of MDF, with honey onyx or black labradorite surface glued on with a lossy compliant adhesive - V shaped, rounded corners. A higher end Nearfield Pipedreams/Martin Logan clone, if you will. I'd keep my Velodyne F1500 for below 80 Hz, or buy a Velodyne DD18 (or 2 &:>)
Alas, I'm retired, and my budget runs more towards "what's the best I can do for less than $1000". I'm currently using a pair of the small Maggies (MMG) that I inherited from my brother. Since my wife has passed away, I will upgrade to the MG3's I have. An audiophile friend and I have built a pair of curved electrostatics that sound pretty good, probably better than even the larger Maggies, & I may build an improved pair of those.
Thank you for a nice reply!!
......
6: This is my dream design!!! :
See the split in the middle I made, to seperate the bass-box and the tweeter/mid-box.
Better sound with the split/seperation?................
In pure aesthetic terms i agree with you but the music is what matters, this is the design Tony Gee refered as being his best...and latest :
The Soup Ceramique MKII.
I would think this will fit your bill to a "T".
Humble Statement would have to have the filters redone because the specified drivers have been all upgraded and are no longer available.
This Soup Ceramic uses latest version of the ceramic drivers and has the hind-sight of various versions going into the latest, and last, filter design...if you have > $3500 to spend on drivers alone...this is the one to go for in my opinion.
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I talked to Humble, and he said that his best speaker (personal favorite) was this speaker: Mezzo Galactica
That may be a good speaker, but it looks like ... im not gonna say it out loud!!
Then I saw a cool speaker her:
Custom Loudspeaker Design
And there it stands:
"An example of a loudspeaker system built to the client's specifications with four 11-inch woofers per side (two on the front and two on the rear), a 7-inch ceramic midrange with custom wound voice-coil impedance and a 1-inch diamond tweeter. The heavily braced cabinets are made from 40mm thick / 28 layer Marine Grade Baltic Birch plywood with a top layer of book-matched American walnut veneer. Tastefully finished with 10 coats of high-gloss clear varnish."
This got me really interested to say the least!!!
I sent him a mail right away, and this is the answer I got:
"The custom loudspeaker will not be available as a DIY-kit nor will any details be disclosed.
Maybe I will design a large speaker for DIY, but that won't be in the near future."
- So now I`m here, to be exact - nowhere near a new candidate DIY-highend speaker. And that people - sucks.
Don`t know what to do. So im just gonna sit around and wait for Humble or Troels to come up with something VERY fancy... Can take some time...
That may be a good speaker, but it looks like ... im not gonna say it out loud!!
Then I saw a cool speaker her:
Custom Loudspeaker Design
And there it stands:
"An example of a loudspeaker system built to the client's specifications with four 11-inch woofers per side (two on the front and two on the rear), a 7-inch ceramic midrange with custom wound voice-coil impedance and a 1-inch diamond tweeter. The heavily braced cabinets are made from 40mm thick / 28 layer Marine Grade Baltic Birch plywood with a top layer of book-matched American walnut veneer. Tastefully finished with 10 coats of high-gloss clear varnish."
This got me really interested to say the least!!!
I sent him a mail right away, and this is the answer I got:
"The custom loudspeaker will not be available as a DIY-kit nor will any details be disclosed.
Maybe I will design a large speaker for DIY, but that won't be in the near future."
- So now I`m here, to be exact - nowhere near a new candidate DIY-highend speaker. And that people - sucks.
Don`t know what to do. So im just gonna sit around and wait for Humble or Troels to come up with something VERY fancy... Can take some time...
Maybe you did not notice but Tony Gee makes custom designs. just send him your wishes and some money...
I know, but I want to build it myself.
A unique design just for you? Something like on his design-site?
What kind of speaker?
Drivers?
Price?
Pics?
How?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A design not exactly Coltrane though
Maybe you could contact Shinobiwan. He has done some impressive buildings, like this http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/66410-von-schweikert-vr-4sr-clone-anyone.html.
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