You might find the Eminent Technology MusicPost Patent of interest.
<a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4764127.WKU.&OS=PN/4764127&RS=PN/4764127">United States Patent 4,764,127
Price; Edison A, 16/08/88 </a>
<i><font color=#804040>"Further, the above-mentioned components 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are machined from grain-oriented tellurium copper rods, with said orientation identified by the mill of origin, and in recognition of the fact that the electrical conductivity of this material is directional with respect to the orientation of said grain. By manufacturing all these components 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 with attention paid to the orientation of the grain and hence the optimal direction of electrical conductivity, said electrical conductivity and hence sonic properties may be further maximized." </font></i>
Regards
James
<a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4764127.WKU.&OS=PN/4764127&RS=PN/4764127">United States Patent 4,764,127
Price; Edison A, 16/08/88 </a>
<i><font color=#804040>"Further, the above-mentioned components 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are machined from grain-oriented tellurium copper rods, with said orientation identified by the mill of origin, and in recognition of the fact that the electrical conductivity of this material is directional with respect to the orientation of said grain. By manufacturing all these components 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 with attention paid to the orientation of the grain and hence the optimal direction of electrical conductivity, said electrical conductivity and hence sonic properties may be further maximized." </font></i>
Regards
James
Attachments
Peter:
>As to mechanical design, I've been using both Cardas and Music Posts and find Cardas much more convenient and user friendly.<
I agree. The shaft of the Music Posts tends to collapse in upon itself, and when it does, the nut no longer screws on properly.
>Jonathan, did you compare unplated and plated copper posts and do you have a preferrence here?<
Yes, and for my personal use, I prefer unplated copper, because it sounds better. But this is with the caveat that the copper will be polished periodically and kept in clean, untarnished condition. For a product that will hopefully be used by a wide variety of people, and perhaps even the odd amplifier/speaker manufacturer or two, I suggest plating the copper.
Gold plating is OK for a short time, but it is soft and can be scratched off relatively easily. Silver turns brown-black due to sulfides in the air, but is sonically better than gold. And it is somewhat cheaper to apply than gold. If Corbato goes with silver, I would suggest reinvesting the cost savings in the form of thicker plating, which will last longer.
Rhodium plating is much stronger than either gold or silver, and will result in a much longer-lasting finish. But it is also more expensive than either gold or silver. I mainly use rhodium for my own products.
So there are the trade-offs. You guys decide.
BTW, can I propose an alternative, "reversed" construction? How about designing the binding post along the lines of a screw-type terminal strip?
I would change what Corbato currently has as the metal shaft into a simple conductive plate structure, with a hole drilled in the center which is sized to accomodate a banana plug, and then tapped. The flat outer face of the conductive plate would provide a mating surface for spade lugs, while the inner surface should be formed into some type of grooved or extended shape that makes it easier to solder cables without requiring 50W or 100W soldering irons. This conductive plate would be captured within a non-conductive sandwich which would form the mounting surface to the amplifier or speaker. What Corbato presently has as the outer "nut" would be changed into a non-conductive "cap-bolt" that screws into the conductive plate, and can be screwed completely in (for spade lugs), and removed completely (for bananas).
This reversed construction would minimize the mechanical stresses on the conductive part, making it easier to use softer (purer) copper alloys, and will also minimize the amount of conductive material used (which in my experience is usually good for sonics). The outer surface of the conductive plate would normally be covered by the cap-bolt, slowing down oxidation, and since the conductive surface would be completely flat, it could easily be polished and kept clean. The inner conductive surface would be a soldered connection, and once the cable was soldered in place, oxidation could be ignored.
I reckon that the only real downside is that although bananas would work, they would be able to contact the conductive plate only through the raised edges of the screw threads, which is far from optimal. Depends on how important you think it is to try to get top-notch performance from bananas (personally I consider it largely a waste of time).
Comments and objections welcomed.
regards, jonathan carr
>As to mechanical design, I've been using both Cardas and Music Posts and find Cardas much more convenient and user friendly.<
I agree. The shaft of the Music Posts tends to collapse in upon itself, and when it does, the nut no longer screws on properly.
>Jonathan, did you compare unplated and plated copper posts and do you have a preferrence here?<
Yes, and for my personal use, I prefer unplated copper, because it sounds better. But this is with the caveat that the copper will be polished periodically and kept in clean, untarnished condition. For a product that will hopefully be used by a wide variety of people, and perhaps even the odd amplifier/speaker manufacturer or two, I suggest plating the copper.
Gold plating is OK for a short time, but it is soft and can be scratched off relatively easily. Silver turns brown-black due to sulfides in the air, but is sonically better than gold. And it is somewhat cheaper to apply than gold. If Corbato goes with silver, I would suggest reinvesting the cost savings in the form of thicker plating, which will last longer.
Rhodium plating is much stronger than either gold or silver, and will result in a much longer-lasting finish. But it is also more expensive than either gold or silver. I mainly use rhodium for my own products.
So there are the trade-offs. You guys decide.
BTW, can I propose an alternative, "reversed" construction? How about designing the binding post along the lines of a screw-type terminal strip?
I would change what Corbato currently has as the metal shaft into a simple conductive plate structure, with a hole drilled in the center which is sized to accomodate a banana plug, and then tapped. The flat outer face of the conductive plate would provide a mating surface for spade lugs, while the inner surface should be formed into some type of grooved or extended shape that makes it easier to solder cables without requiring 50W or 100W soldering irons. This conductive plate would be captured within a non-conductive sandwich which would form the mounting surface to the amplifier or speaker. What Corbato presently has as the outer "nut" would be changed into a non-conductive "cap-bolt" that screws into the conductive plate, and can be screwed completely in (for spade lugs), and removed completely (for bananas).
This reversed construction would minimize the mechanical stresses on the conductive part, making it easier to use softer (purer) copper alloys, and will also minimize the amount of conductive material used (which in my experience is usually good for sonics). The outer surface of the conductive plate would normally be covered by the cap-bolt, slowing down oxidation, and since the conductive surface would be completely flat, it could easily be polished and kept clean. The inner conductive surface would be a soldered connection, and once the cable was soldered in place, oxidation could be ignored.
I reckon that the only real downside is that although bananas would work, they would be able to contact the conductive plate only through the raised edges of the screw threads, which is far from optimal. Depends on how important you think it is to try to get top-notch performance from bananas (personally I consider it largely a waste of time).
Comments and objections welcomed.
regards, jonathan carr
Are we here into something big, I mean the ultimate binding post?
While I also don't care much for bananas and consider them inferior connection, one way in avoiding the contact on bananas through the tapped groves only, could be tapping the hole to a certain depth only (maybe a 1/4"or slightly more) and leaving the rest of the hole untapped, with a size for banana connector.
While I also don't care much for bananas and consider them inferior connection, one way in avoiding the contact on bananas through the tapped groves only, could be tapping the hole to a certain depth only (maybe a 1/4"or slightly more) and leaving the rest of the hole untapped, with a size for banana connector.
I think we tend to want our devices to appear
as normal high end devices, thus we use fancy posts, etc.
Of course on a product, like Peter's gainclones, these are required. BUT for most interconnects, I would think we DIYers should use soldered connections. After all, we have that iron in our hands all the time anyway if we need to change an interconnect or speaker cable. Of course someone will now respond that a terminal sounds better than a solder joint, even though most terminals are soldered to the wires!!!
as normal high end devices, thus we use fancy posts, etc.
Of course on a product, like Peter's gainclones, these are required. BUT for most interconnects, I would think we DIYers should use soldered connections. After all, we have that iron in our hands all the time anyway if we need to change an interconnect or speaker cable. Of course someone will now respond that a terminal sounds better than a solder joint, even though most terminals are soldered to the wires!!!
I have a similar view on that. In the beginning I was influenced by the industry and thought that this is a natural thing to use connectors and binding posts. With time, I started experimenting and it appears that simplicity has it's virtues as well and if I don't change my setup for years, why not solder the pieces together and not only improve the sonics but save as well.
I, for one, have not soldered anything in my cabs... yeah, I have had one problem with it coming undone and then coming in contact with itself and presenting a 0-ohm load to the amplifier (THANK GOD for cheap Japanese solid-state amps with $.05 capacitors and overdrive protection!) but that was just because I didn't have things hooked up in a secure manner.
Ideally, the binding posts we use would be the same on both sides of the cabinet, and the wire would be securely, and solderlessly (is that a word?) attached on the inside, to the same-style binding posts on the actual drivers. Of course, this adds cost, and so we make tradeoffs with bare wire threaded through holes, etc.
But, I don't believe solder adds all that much resistance, and won't be a problem unless you're running 5KW through it and intend to melt the solder... what other problems could solder possibly cause, that would be audible? I'll fork over my life savings to anyone who can hear the difference, double-bind, between soldered and unsoldered joints inside the speaker cabinet... (Here we go again...) (/hijack)
Ideally, the binding posts we use would be the same on both sides of the cabinet, and the wire would be securely, and solderlessly (is that a word?) attached on the inside, to the same-style binding posts on the actual drivers. Of course, this adds cost, and so we make tradeoffs with bare wire threaded through holes, etc.
But, I don't believe solder adds all that much resistance, and won't be a problem unless you're running 5KW through it and intend to melt the solder... what other problems could solder possibly cause, that would be audible? I'll fork over my life savings to anyone who can hear the difference, double-bind, between soldered and unsoldered joints inside the speaker cabinet... (Here we go again...) (/hijack)
why binding posts. as a DIy we can bypass posts altogether. i solder direct from woofer termail to XO and from XO to amp. If I need to disconnect I use a solder rod (it helps that my per & power amp are home made too).
however since corbato is making them i could book about 20 might come in handy for HT/AV setups.
which city are you in corbato.
however since corbato is making them i could book about 20 might come in handy for HT/AV setups.
which city are you in corbato.
navin said:
Could'nt agree more with you. I solder my speaker cable to the output transfomer directly. The need for Binding Post has arisen because I'm planning a Gainclone for my duaghter and it does'nt appear that she much of a DIY'er.
I should have had the protos ready since long, but Tellurium Copper in correct draw was not available. If machined out of pure copper stock, the prot collapsed in itself once torque was applied. So back to redesigning.
I live in Jamshedpur.
very close to cal. there are a few on the forum from cal. if you get these psots made i could get them pciked up from cal. i have a friend and a few relatives there.
been the jamshedpur. india's pittsburgh. what do you do there? Let me guess, TISCO? TELCO?
if you are in mumbai give me a holler.
been the jamshedpur. india's pittsburgh. what do you do there? Let me guess, TISCO? TELCO?
if you are in mumbai give me a holler.
Sangram Rakshit hain, naa!
I'm willing to help out.
Say corbato I'm in JSR every now and then. Maybe we could chat sometime.
Heat must be killing ya. I know quite a few people thereabouts - one of my bandmates works there with Tata AIG. Good guitarist, Maybe you'd like to get together to hear a real music system - an acoustic guitar and a voice...
I'm willing to help out.
Say corbato I'm in JSR every now and then. Maybe we could chat sometime.
Heat must be killing ya. I know quite a few people thereabouts - one of my bandmates works there with Tata AIG. Good guitarist, Maybe you'd like to get together to hear a real music system - an acoustic guitar and a voice...
navin said:
well...l buy from Tisco and sell to Telco
We are in OE auto component business. Lots of Gears and Propshafts. Quite pressed at the moment, so the DIY Posts are taking the backseat.But dont worry. I am awaiting supply of Te Cu Bar from a mill in Chennai. I will courier some to you once the posts are ready. You can do Gold/Silver/Vanilla coating at your end.
back in the 70's I used to be the errands boy for a local band. Had a good Gibson Jumbo bought for Rs. 360. Alas, I never learned more than two notessangram said:
Why don't call me at 09835134994 when ever you guys next plan to be in Jsr. Maybe we can have a few at one of our famed clubs here
BTW Sangram how's your SE Guitar amp coming along? Let me know if you need help with the Output Transformer. Also, do ask your TATA AIG pal to call me. If he is so inclined, then the monthly meet of the Jsr Jazz Club is due soon. He will like it. Good music, good booz (free
).
thanks corbato I will pass on your number to him. His name's ronojoy.
My SE guitar amp is waiting to get off the ground, yet. I have managed to locate an old man (70+) in our local market who can get me everything I need, including some lovely EL84s if I wish, and power and output transformers. The last bastion of the tube fraternity in Cal. Might as well spend the 1500 bucks and pick up everything I need before anything untoward happens to him.
Delta transformers. Were good - still are the best. Grossly oversized and absolutely spot-on - 5% or better regulation at full load. Amazing stuff. Unfortunately have capability problems for bigger transformers, max upto 200VA or so.
My SE guitar amp is waiting to get off the ground, yet. I have managed to locate an old man (70+) in our local market who can get me everything I need, including some lovely EL84s if I wish, and power and output transformers. The last bastion of the tube fraternity in Cal. Might as well spend the 1500 bucks and pick up everything I need before anything untoward happens to him.
Delta transformers. Were good - still are the best. Grossly oversized and absolutely spot-on - 5% or better regulation at full load. Amazing stuff. Unfortunately have capability problems for bigger transformers, max upto 200VA or so.
Boy do I feel like a citizen of the world! As has been said a million times here, the best part about DIY Audio is the true international aspect. (and there are a lot of other great things- experts, group buys, etc.). While I stated earlier that we should be soldering stuff instead of posts, there are of course many times that just won't work. I think a lot of us are envisioning Gainclones as gifts to our non DIY audio friends and relatives (hoping to convert them to high fi -good luck!) So the post will still be much appreciated if they get into production. I still think that compromising the structure to clamp onto banana plugs is a bad (and complicated) idea. HAving a hole that they can be inserted into is OK, but I would prefer that they be stronger, which probably means we have no bananas today. A small advantage of banana holes (tm) is that they could be filled with colored epoxy or some such to designate polarity
Corbato, I know a Texas (Austin) BE, Harvard MBA who used to work for GM in Detroit and then GE in Bang who is looking for a job. you got any ideas.
he dont mind locating to anywhere in India (I think). Presently he is shuttling bet. his father's place in chennai and closing shop in Bang. He has give GE 30 days notice.
I know this is way of topic and also soliciting so I might get rapped on the knuckles for this but I am not soliciting for myself so dave please be kind.
BTW if you guys want to locate anything in mumbai let me know.
he dont mind locating to anywhere in India (I think). Presently he is shuttling bet. his father's place in chennai and closing shop in Bang. He has give GE 30 days notice.
I know this is way of topic and also soliciting so I might get rapped on the knuckles for this but I am not soliciting for myself so dave please be kind.
BTW if you guys want to locate anything in mumbai let me know.
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