Keyser; yes it would, but there are many caveats. First of all, not on the first try. It takes some experience to learn to "hear" drivers, and correlate what you hear from the raw driver with what it could be in a well designed system. Drivers that are similar in voicing and "speed" are needed for a seamless transition from one to another. And some experience in selecting the appropriate crossover functions for a given driver is also very useful. It's a tricky blend of engineering and art. Being acquainted with live acoustic music is necessary as well, as the instruments' timbre serves as a reference standard. As I mentioned in my previous post, some drivers are just not available to the amateur; Wilson drivers are usually modified versions, and Thiel is now building their own proprietary designs; and Dynaudio's drivers are missed. There are excellent drivers available, it's just that you don't have quite the professionals' breadth of choice.
Crossovers, as good as the best professionals' or even just plain ol' excellent are not come by quickly or casually. Measurement capability, including waterfall, is a necessity, and practice will be needed to correlate what you see in the measurements with what you hear. Crossover components are critical at that level, and not inexpensive. Associated equipment must also be excellent. I would stay with passive crossovers, because of the great difficulty in making truly excellent digital crossovers with their associated ADC's (if needed) and DAC's; and to a somewhat lesser extent, analogue active crossovers. Associated cables matter too. CD player, amplifier, and cables would be >$5,000 used.
The experience will not be free. There will be dead ends, restarts, discarded drivers and components, etc. etc. And it will take time. As a rule of thumb, a new crossover component needs 40 hours of breakin before evaluation, some drivers twice that.
So I'd suggest not swinging for the fences the first time at bat. Most start with more modest ambitions, such as building workshop speakers, home theater speakers, or ambience speakers; maybe starting with a kit, a proven DIY design, or a good clone, and experiment with upgrading the crossover components and improving the cabinet bracing. And then a bit more ambitious for the next project; and then... and then....
Is it possible to build a better speaker than commercial efforts for less money? Sure, if you don't add your time to the cost, which of course you don't as it is a hobby. You're not having to pay yourself a salary, rent, or marketing costs. As a rule of thumb, the cabinet is the most expensive "component" in a commercial system; if you build your own you automatically get a savings, and it is not hard to improve on less expensive commercial cabinets.
With all that said, a very interesting and rewarding branch of the hobby is to build the most for the least. There are some exellent resources and guides mentioned on these forums to help.
Crossovers, as good as the best professionals' or even just plain ol' excellent are not come by quickly or casually. Measurement capability, including waterfall, is a necessity, and practice will be needed to correlate what you see in the measurements with what you hear. Crossover components are critical at that level, and not inexpensive. Associated equipment must also be excellent. I would stay with passive crossovers, because of the great difficulty in making truly excellent digital crossovers with their associated ADC's (if needed) and DAC's; and to a somewhat lesser extent, analogue active crossovers. Associated cables matter too. CD player, amplifier, and cables would be >$5,000 used.
The experience will not be free. There will be dead ends, restarts, discarded drivers and components, etc. etc. And it will take time. As a rule of thumb, a new crossover component needs 40 hours of breakin before evaluation, some drivers twice that.
So I'd suggest not swinging for the fences the first time at bat. Most start with more modest ambitions, such as building workshop speakers, home theater speakers, or ambience speakers; maybe starting with a kit, a proven DIY design, or a good clone, and experiment with upgrading the crossover components and improving the cabinet bracing. And then a bit more ambitious for the next project; and then... and then....
Is it possible to build a better speaker than commercial efforts for less money? Sure, if you don't add your time to the cost, which of course you don't as it is a hobby. You're not having to pay yourself a salary, rent, or marketing costs. As a rule of thumb, the cabinet is the most expensive "component" in a commercial system; if you build your own you automatically get a savings, and it is not hard to improve on less expensive commercial cabinets.
With all that said, a very interesting and rewarding branch of the hobby is to build the most for the least. There are some exellent resources and guides mentioned on these forums to help.
I did both
I couldn't stand it and did both..................lol. Didn't even really need two pairs, but just dominated my thoughts!!! PLANT10's tall version of the THOR's sounds AWSOME!!!! These are solid red oak and about 4-50 hours of blood sweat and tears!!! LOL, but they sould REALLY good!
I couldn't stand it and did both..................lol. Didn't even really need two pairs, but just dominated my thoughts!!! PLANT10's tall version of the THOR's sounds AWSOME!!!! These are solid red oak and about 4-50 hours of blood sweat and tears!!! LOL, but they sould REALLY good!
Attachments
Conclusion
The speakers are awsome........ but I used a "proven" design by PLANT10 and approximately $1500 to get there. $840 for the drivers, $330 for the upgraded cross-over, $200 for the solid red oak 1x12 and 1x10's, teflon 11.5 ga internal wiring, silver solder, ports, epoxy and misc parts.................
THANKS PLANET10 !!!!!
The speakers are awsome........ but I used a "proven" design by PLANT10 and approximately $1500 to get there. $840 for the drivers, $330 for the upgraded cross-over, $200 for the solid red oak 1x12 and 1x10's, teflon 11.5 ga internal wiring, silver solder, ports, epoxy and misc parts.................
THANKS PLANET10 !!!!!
KEF IQ9 series floorstander (1st from right):
Wood thickness is about 12mm, cables are joke.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Wood thickness is about 12mm, cables are joke.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm currently pondering this exact same question: What is the difference in SQ of DIY vs. Commercially built speakers at similar price points.
For example, I am currently considering either a Seas Thor or Zaph ZRT build. In terms of cost these would be around £1000.
Generally speaking, would the SQ of these DIY builds, with tried and tested plans/XO, be any better than the comparable commercial build (i.e. in the UK these speakers are at a similar price pont: Tannoy DC6T, Dali Ikon 6, Focal Chorus 816V, KEF IQ70, B&W CM7)?
For example, I am currently considering either a Seas Thor or Zaph ZRT build. In terms of cost these would be around £1000.
Generally speaking, would the SQ of these DIY builds, with tried and tested plans/XO, be any better than the comparable commercial build (i.e. in the UK these speakers are at a similar price pont: Tannoy DC6T, Dali Ikon 6, Focal Chorus 816V, KEF IQ70, B&W CM7)?
Re: Re: DIY loudspeaker vs. factory built loudspeaker
Hi,
agreed. An other aspect is, that the DIYer most often ain't an engineer. His focus is on what he can read in magazines, catching some vacabulary. What he reads there will most probably differ from what is discussed in the lab of a professional designer (mostly the lab has a personal of one guy plus cleaner...). So even if the knowledge is of high quantity and the wording sounds impressive in the first moment, it may not be as profund as the DIYer would wish it was.
Commercials are always a bit misleading. Anybody knows that. Before a DIYer might do better than a established vendor, he has to forget a lot of rubbish. It's hard to seperate from the real stuff. Near to impossible without some thorough education. If someone goes for speakers that are "as good as from factory", the way to excellence will sound quite hollow.
Not at least an excellent speaker is a piece of representative furniture (e/g said Watt/Puppy) . Judging a speaker by its sound only comes a bit short value wise.
so long
myhrrhleine said:
Hi,
agreed. An other aspect is, that the DIYer most often ain't an engineer. His focus is on what he can read in magazines, catching some vacabulary. What he reads there will most probably differ from what is discussed in the lab of a professional designer (mostly the lab has a personal of one guy plus cleaner...). So even if the knowledge is of high quantity and the wording sounds impressive in the first moment, it may not be as profund as the DIYer would wish it was.
Commercials are always a bit misleading. Anybody knows that. Before a DIYer might do better than a established vendor, he has to forget a lot of rubbish. It's hard to seperate from the real stuff. Near to impossible without some thorough education. If someone goes for speakers that are "as good as from factory", the way to excellence will sound quite hollow.
Not at least an excellent speaker is a piece of representative furniture (e/g said Watt/Puppy) . Judging a speaker by its sound only comes a bit short value wise.
so long
perempe20 said:
.. and from what do You know that it counts, and how much? I'm sure K.E.F. evaluated the items with a budged on the shelf that exceeds the cost of Your total hifi gear. The DIYer may be proud building speakers with cabinet walls 3" thick, treatend with precious "hypersonic dead ultra", using cables as thick that You have to correct the internal volume for, made of pure stellar plasma, of course. I'm convinced building speakers is for the most of it incorporating cavities within a living room. There's not to much brain in it - look at Geddes, some guidelines that are well puzzled out and You are finished!
have fun
The gauge on that speaker wire is fine too!
It's a perennial question. It seems to me that it actually is several questions.
Can I develop my own design that will exceed the value of a manufactured system? No, not unless you learn a LOT about speaker design, and have the necessary tools; measurement, and software.
Can I follow a "good design" and build a speaker system that performs well for its cost? Yes.
How much would I save? Obviously here you have to compare a kit version or copy of a commercial design to the commercial design to keep the apples and oranges straight. Woodworking tools? Soldering iron? All the small bits like the input connectors included in the analysis?
Will I like what I build? Speaker quality is subjective, and not a straight ladder. Music preferences, listening room, and to some degree associated equipment, need to be considered. Symphonic, Mahler? String quartets? Heavy metal? Speakers that do equally well with all tend to be quite expensive... in the mere mortal price range, some compromise is usually necessary. Are you looking for bright, super-articulate, sound with extreme inner detail? Or smooth, slightly sweet, unruffled sound? Or something in between?
Do you hear differences in cables, wiring, capacitors, etc.? You may not now, but may later, or perhaps never. I expect there will be some surly, bullying comments denouncing such differences; trust your own ears. Your money, your hobby, not theirs. Humble homemade does capacitor reviews that are pretty good. Humble Homemade
IF you listen to a lot of speakers, and compare your opinion to magazine reviewers' opinions, you may be able to eventually develop a feeling for which reviewers you can trust. Otherwise, be wary... very wary of reviews. The reviewer may have very different base preferences from you.
So, in belated summary; I'd advise buying a kit of a speaker you know you like. Next choice would be building a DIY design that's been around for a while, and has a lot of good comments from builders. In that case, be prepared to sell and move on with what you've learned, if the system is not to your taste. Unless you want a major hobby, I'd advise against developing your own design; although it can be a lifelong and satisfying hobby indeed, it does require a major commitment in time (and money) to achieve consistent success.
Can I develop my own design that will exceed the value of a manufactured system? No, not unless you learn a LOT about speaker design, and have the necessary tools; measurement, and software.
Can I follow a "good design" and build a speaker system that performs well for its cost? Yes.
How much would I save? Obviously here you have to compare a kit version or copy of a commercial design to the commercial design to keep the apples and oranges straight. Woodworking tools? Soldering iron? All the small bits like the input connectors included in the analysis?
Will I like what I build? Speaker quality is subjective, and not a straight ladder. Music preferences, listening room, and to some degree associated equipment, need to be considered. Symphonic, Mahler? String quartets? Heavy metal? Speakers that do equally well with all tend to be quite expensive... in the mere mortal price range, some compromise is usually necessary. Are you looking for bright, super-articulate, sound with extreme inner detail? Or smooth, slightly sweet, unruffled sound? Or something in between?
Do you hear differences in cables, wiring, capacitors, etc.? You may not now, but may later, or perhaps never. I expect there will be some surly, bullying comments denouncing such differences; trust your own ears. Your money, your hobby, not theirs. Humble homemade does capacitor reviews that are pretty good. Humble Homemade
IF you listen to a lot of speakers, and compare your opinion to magazine reviewers' opinions, you may be able to eventually develop a feeling for which reviewers you can trust. Otherwise, be wary... very wary of reviews. The reviewer may have very different base preferences from you.
So, in belated summary; I'd advise buying a kit of a speaker you know you like. Next choice would be building a DIY design that's been around for a while, and has a lot of good comments from builders. In that case, be prepared to sell and move on with what you've learned, if the system is not to your taste. Unless you want a major hobby, I'd advise against developing your own design; although it can be a lifelong and satisfying hobby indeed, it does require a major commitment in time (and money) to achieve consistent success.
Great site! It shows exactly how it shouldn't be done. Did You wonder how this self made man compares capacitors whilst describing their differences as a gourmet in front of a sufflee surprise with oyster chips? That man undergoes an autosuggestive trance every time he's listening to canned music, I'm afraid.
All that constructions follow the magazines guidelines on what was top rank high end fashionable something hyper hyper. Nothing is tested for reality though. And if, the frequency curves, they are up to some very special taste in spite of being correct/neutral. No engineer on the world would work like that. It is the marketing staff that invents new cone materials, fancy x^2 drivers and the more. To follow those highly acclaimed persuations is the downside of DIY. It makes it inefficient etc whislst running You mad.
have fun
Ultimately I think you can build your own system (a bit hard to hear speakers on their own) that can rival something from the store at many times the price.
But all the caveats already mentioned are important, taste in sound, driver selection etc.
There are many ways to cut a cake, in my case (I could not design a passive network to save my life) I use a deqx and tri amp the whole shebang. If you feel active and dsp are valuable (as I do) then straight away I saved my self a whole bundle of work.
Flip side of that coin is added expense and complexity in amps etc.
But equally, it also means that the commercial 'competition' I'm playing against is the upper end of the market, the already mentioned B&Ws, wilsons etc etc.
I have heard the 802 Ds, whilst nice enough they don't even come close to mine (for my ears and my taste in music ), and have only heard the Wilson sophias and grand slamms, to me very poor indeed. I now wonder what the hoo-hah is about wilsons, I didn't like them at all.
But equally I acknowledge that I had a great deal of 'luck' when I chose the drivers I did. I found that out only recently when I substituted one PHL mid I had laying around (1360 if that's of interest) for the one I'd been using for years, the 1660.
I did not expect much difference (same brand, must be similar sound etc) but boy I could not believe the improvement, so put in another pair of tweeters that I had laying around and again, a much improved sound. Luckily I feel absolutely no need to try different drivers so I have finalised the driver compliment and can finish the boxes.
BUT all that was simply a long winded way of saying that (obviously really) a critical part of your success is driver selection and how they interact with each other.
How many drivers are there out there? Who has the budget to try more than a fraction of what is available?
I'm glad I was lucky. A friend of mine spent about $5000 on raw drivers recently to get a better sound than his dynaudio c4's (I think they were). He has just sold those drivers as he could not come close, AND no doubt has had such a loss that he will not ever try diy again.
I mean that was a particularly ambitious project, esp for a first timer, but he expected it to win first time it was fired up and got quite a shock that it did not automatically win. He had bought the idea that to get a great sound by diy all you need to do is buy the 'best bass driver, best mid driver, best tweeter' and throw it all together, He found out (as said by many before) that it does not necessarily work that way.
(not that I feel guilty, but the truth is he was trying to emulate my sound, have no idea why he simply did not duplicate it, why invent a new wheel to get the sound he wanted by not following (my) proven design). Maybe that means unless you have the skills and time, follow a proven diy design (if that sounds like I'm saying I had the skills to design mine, well re-read my comments about the luck I had, phew)
Even within the same subset of drivers I have been using, it has taken me about three of four years to gradually fine tune and adjust everything to get it to where it is now. Now that is all over it is only now I can build the finished box.
So as many have already said, it takes time to sort it all if you are starting your own design from scratch, I'd hate to think of the iterations required if you are designing, building and then tweaking passive networks
I KNOW I could not do it, I would go mad on the listening trials.
But again as stated, it is not all bad news, I now have a system that rivals ANY of the big names in audio, and am intensely proud of it.
But all the caveats already mentioned are important, taste in sound, driver selection etc.
There are many ways to cut a cake, in my case (I could not design a passive network to save my life) I use a deqx and tri amp the whole shebang. If you feel active and dsp are valuable (as I do) then straight away I saved my self a whole bundle of work.
Flip side of that coin is added expense and complexity in amps etc.
But equally, it also means that the commercial 'competition' I'm playing against is the upper end of the market, the already mentioned B&Ws, wilsons etc etc.
I have heard the 802 Ds, whilst nice enough they don't even come close to mine (for my ears and my taste in music ), and have only heard the Wilson sophias and grand slamms, to me very poor indeed. I now wonder what the hoo-hah is about wilsons, I didn't like them at all.
But equally I acknowledge that I had a great deal of 'luck' when I chose the drivers I did. I found that out only recently when I substituted one PHL mid I had laying around (1360 if that's of interest) for the one I'd been using for years, the 1660.
I did not expect much difference (same brand, must be similar sound etc) but boy I could not believe the improvement, so put in another pair of tweeters that I had laying around and again, a much improved sound. Luckily I feel absolutely no need to try different drivers so I have finalised the driver compliment and can finish the boxes.
BUT all that was simply a long winded way of saying that (obviously really) a critical part of your success is driver selection and how they interact with each other.
How many drivers are there out there? Who has the budget to try more than a fraction of what is available?
I'm glad I was lucky. A friend of mine spent about $5000 on raw drivers recently to get a better sound than his dynaudio c4's (I think they were). He has just sold those drivers as he could not come close, AND no doubt has had such a loss that he will not ever try diy again.
I mean that was a particularly ambitious project, esp for a first timer, but he expected it to win first time it was fired up and got quite a shock that it did not automatically win. He had bought the idea that to get a great sound by diy all you need to do is buy the 'best bass driver, best mid driver, best tweeter' and throw it all together, He found out (as said by many before) that it does not necessarily work that way.
(not that I feel guilty, but the truth is he was trying to emulate my sound, have no idea why he simply did not duplicate it, why invent a new wheel to get the sound he wanted by not following (my) proven design). Maybe that means unless you have the skills and time, follow a proven diy design (if that sounds like I'm saying I had the skills to design mine, well re-read my comments about the luck I had, phew)
Even within the same subset of drivers I have been using, it has taken me about three of four years to gradually fine tune and adjust everything to get it to where it is now. Now that is all over it is only now I can build the finished box.
So as many have already said, it takes time to sort it all if you are starting your own design from scratch, I'd hate to think of the iterations required if you are designing, building and then tweaking passive networks
I KNOW I could not do it, I would go mad on the listening trials.
But again as stated, it is not all bad news, I now have a system that rivals ANY of the big names in audio, and am intensely proud of it.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.