Oh Boy ... compound pendulum , associated with many more parameters lurking around the corner , such as torque restoring etc. , deep math yikes
But I agree we should do the math to fully understand what's going on here .
Frank , thanks for additional explanations ! I find it interesting using an inner ball bearing race with another bearing inside . you won't find anything more precise than that .. very smart application !
Are you willing to say something about the sonics of this tonearm vs. others ? It will not be used against you in the court of law , it's just that it's extremely interesting to learn how the additional bearing pivot pays off during playback .
Thx ,
Paul
But I agree we should do the math to fully understand what's going on here .
Frank , thanks for additional explanations ! I find it interesting using an inner ball bearing race with another bearing inside . you won't find anything more precise than that .. very smart application !
Are you willing to say something about the sonics of this tonearm vs. others ? It will not be used against you in the court of law , it's just that it's extremely interesting to learn how the additional bearing pivot pays off during playback .
Thx ,
Paul
Here is a pic of the stylus I have been using frequently for every variation of arm, I think this can put to rest the stress on cantilever theory
My vinyl has seemed to stay quiet even longer than with a pivoted arm, and I've noticed an absense of obvious wear vs prior pivoted arms with antiskate.
Frank, you make beautiful arms, they are amazing pieces of work, perfect?, probably not since no arm is. I unfortunately cannot afford the entry fee of 3900 dollars to start tasting shroeder arms, but the cost to build this wheeled arm alone financially let's it run circles around the unaffordable to many offerings.
Reasearch is expensive however and I'm amazed anyone can still make any money in Audio, but Doing the quick math I can see why the costs are exhorbitantly high in a niche market.
Colin
The main reason I came up with the pulley idea if you guys remember.
I will test it sure (first I have to build my TT from a DUAL 1229).
My original idea was to ad just enough weight (force) true a pulley to the carriage to help the movement but still the main idea remain the idea the cartridge drive the carriage.
I think is simple not difficult at all to execute (build it) and achieve good result.
With the pulley idea the pulling force on the carriage can be always the same and not complicated to build like air bearing or other type.........
Greetings Gabor
Hi Gaborbela ,
Thus a pulley mechanism , weight controlled , both sides , spring suspension ?
have you got something working yet ?
THX
Paul
If it came down to a pulley system it would be better to go with Frank's idea iIMHO, I see a pulley like antiskate, there is no need for it in a linear arm if we also remember that the groove wall doesn't present only a side force but a force that also wants to pull the arm forward.
Colin
Colin
Hello gaborbela
The pulley idea would work if it were not for eccentric LPs. The weight would prevent the carriage from moving outward, causing the stylus to jump the groove once per revolution of the LP.
If you wanted to test that idea, you could simply tilt the entire turntable a fraction of a degree.
My suggestion is, not to waste your time.
Sincerely,
Ralf
The pulley idea would work if it were not for eccentric LPs. The weight would prevent the carriage from moving outward, causing the stylus to jump the groove once per revolution of the LP.
If you wanted to test that idea, you could simply tilt the entire turntable a fraction of a degree.
My suggestion is, not to waste your time.
Sincerely,
Ralf
Barleywater,
Yes, I have not recorded output besides the videos I posted early on. I am still awaiting however an answer on which linear arm you measured for your first submissions of vague data
. Ears can hear, eyes can see, I trust my ears more than a computer in music reproduction, no apologies here. Eccentric vinyl, its key in my work on this arm .Colin
Hello Everyone
I'm with Colin on this.
I not only had a Cantus but also a Clearaudio Tangent a couple of years ago. The Clearaudio had a short wand-about the same length as the ones we're working with- and it ran along a length of 'surgical' wire.
Neither arm made any effort to compensate for off centre records and neither suffered (or caused problems with the stylus cantilever) from issues as far as I was aware.
I trust what I hear, and over the years I have been able to recognise almost immediately when something was awry. I certainly can detect no issues with my current prototype and am now putting together a 'tarted up' version. I've stated before that it outperforms my Cantus and still stand by this conclusion.
I have a feeling people are getting a little hung up about warps and off centre records. I have a collection of over 2500 lp's and I can count on the fingers of one hand those with problems.
STOP RUMINATING and enjoy what you hear!!
Regards
Chris
I'm with Colin on this.
I not only had a Cantus but also a Clearaudio Tangent a couple of years ago. The Clearaudio had a short wand-about the same length as the ones we're working with- and it ran along a length of 'surgical' wire.
Neither arm made any effort to compensate for off centre records and neither suffered (or caused problems with the stylus cantilever) from issues as far as I was aware.
I trust what I hear, and over the years I have been able to recognise almost immediately when something was awry. I certainly can detect no issues with my current prototype and am now putting together a 'tarted up' version. I've stated before that it outperforms my Cantus and still stand by this conclusion.
I have a feeling people are getting a little hung up about warps and off centre records. I have a collection of over 2500 lp's and I can count on the fingers of one hand those with problems.
STOP RUMINATING and enjoy what you hear!!
Regards
Chris
Barleywater,
Yes, I have not recorded output besides the videos I posted early on. I am still awaiting however an answer on which linear arm you measured for your first submissions of vague data
Colin
Here is thread containing info:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...silence-when-nothing-playing.html#post3816074
Pivot setup is: Technics SL1210 mk2 with Audio Technica 440mla cartridge.
This is rather standard issue gear. Massive tonearm, counterweight, and choice of tracking force account for resonance peak at 8Hz.
Linear tracking setup was a rather nasty looking Kenwood.
Pictures, and recording samples are contained in link to zip file of post #6 of referenced thread: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12325293/noisealex1.zip
Recording for Technics results contained a good bit of male voice speaking in narrative. Listening to this the IM is quite apparent. Yes, I've got eyes and ears too. Sounds like crap.
Kenwood recording is totally fuzzy mess. Low mass arm, and likely high tracking force. Yuck.
Sure, I've listened to plenty of vinyl on diverse systems, and enjoyed most of it.
The pictures I posted are not the least big vague. They correlate with what I heard in the recorded samples. Supper low level hum and noise is heard with no vinyl spinning. Noise of recording chain and of vinyl is heard in quiet sections. Quavering is heard in speaking voice, and in all the rest of the recorded samples.
An incredible amount of analysis is possible with program material as source data. With test record of known content eking out last bit of performance of any given setup becomes straight forward.
Relying on memory is highly limited. Recording various favorite references with different tweaks, or different setups allow direct comparison of results at any time. It eliminates, the "well as I recall, I really liked setup J, but this setup P may just be a little better, but I'm not sure" types of results.
Don't get me wrong here, I think this thread is wonderful. If I ever had another TT it would be linear tracker, and I would start with what is here. Approach is elegant, straight forward. Significant improvement would require tracking servo with damping, and tracking force servo with damping. Improvements likely be significant, but relatively small compared to change from pivot arm to linear track arm, and at very high cost of time and resources.
Hi Folks
Personaly I think that everyone should get his/her change to ventilate his/her ideas and observations here , no matter if we agree or dissagree
This is not a contest and there's no price to win at the finish , I am pretty new to this tonearm build and try to use whatever usefull information during the process of building my second ( dual rod ) rails version . At this very moment I'm working on different arm structures , different joints and materials enabling myself to hear and see what works best for me personaly later on !
I also fabricated some samples that many people here would NOT use for reasons they have mentioned ... and I'm looking forward to try these too for obvious reasons .
Can we confirm issues by making measurings ( in whatever form ) ?? I that's the case I would be very glad to read about how this needs to be done and also about the test rig . So far nobody have replied on this subject !! meanwhile I guess I can only use my ears , eyes and intuïtions to get any further in the process of creating a better sounding product . very subjective and personal flavour perhaps . nothing wrong with that of course
Keep going guys , I admire ALL of you !!
THX
Paul
Personaly I think that everyone should get his/her change to ventilate his/her ideas and observations here , no matter if we agree or dissagree
This is not a contest and there's no price to win at the finish , I am pretty new to this tonearm build and try to use whatever usefull information during the process of building my second ( dual rod ) rails version . At this very moment I'm working on different arm structures , different joints and materials enabling myself to hear and see what works best for me personaly later on !
I also fabricated some samples that many people here would NOT use for reasons they have mentioned ... and I'm looking forward to try these too for obvious reasons .
Can we confirm issues by making measurings ( in whatever form ) ?? I that's the case I would be very glad to read about how this needs to be done and also about the test rig . So far nobody have replied on this subject !! meanwhile I guess I can only use my ears , eyes and intuïtions to get any further in the process of creating a better sounding product . very subjective and personal flavour perhaps . nothing wrong with that of course
Keep going guys , I admire ALL of you !!
THX
Paul
mounting assembly
I love what neugruen is doing with the manual positioning system (pgs 79, 124).
I'm looking for a cheap/rigid/adjustable off-the-shelf device for the mounting assembly. Potentially the head of a camera tripod but thinking it might not be ridid enough. Any other ideas out there? Thank You.
I love what neugruen is doing with the manual positioning system (pgs 79, 124).
I'm looking for a cheap/rigid/adjustable off-the-shelf device for the mounting assembly. Potentially the head of a camera tripod but thinking it might not be ridid enough. Any other ideas out there? Thank You.
A very good point mate , this is not an easy going arm for frequent cart rolling . other than our beloved SME lock plug and play skills .. but we may find a way for easier VTA adjustment somewhere around the cart mount .. but on the other hand we don't wanna throw away our riggid arm / cart coupling , right ? So far I haven't found any easy of the shelf solution for this but who knows it comes up at some point . food for thought !!
Till than , keep struggling
THX
Paul
.. but we may find a way for easier VTA adjustment somewhere around the cart mount .. but on the other hand we don't wanna throw away our riggid arm / cart coupling , right ? So far I haven't found any easy of the shelf solution for this but who knows it comes up at some point . food for thought !!Till than , keep struggling
THX
Paul
I do not see why the pulley idea cant work. Always there is a better solution but these is simple.
To demonstrate I took (borrow) these picture from the thread. Where is the red arrow you ad as much weight as you need. Simple you can adjust it until the weight almost pull the carriage. You can set up that weight with out play records.
In these case you can use longer arm (wind) like one on these picture which I think is better than the short.
Also that would enable you to exchange the record easier. I will tested soon after I built my TT.
Of course all these need to be thoroughly tested.
These just a simple idea. Of course I'm open to other idea to.
We here to learn new think, tricks from each other, and make it simple as possible so everybody can build it.
You can use two pulley , one each side that would give much stable support to the weight.
Greetings G
To demonstrate I took (borrow) these picture from the thread. Where is the red arrow you ad as much weight as you need. Simple you can adjust it until the weight almost pull the carriage. You can set up that weight with out play records.
In these case you can use longer arm (wind) like one on these picture which I think is better than the short.
Also that would enable you to exchange the record easier. I will tested soon after I built my TT.
Of course all these need to be thoroughly tested.
These just a simple idea. Of course I'm open to other idea to.
We here to learn new think, tricks from each other, and make it simple as possible so everybody can build it.
You can use two pulley , one each side that would give much stable support to the weight.
Greetings G
Attachments
As funny as it sounds, regarding a better vertical pivot if I had any critical suggestion it would be don't try too hard. In fact for the first little while I found myself trying to get back the superior vertical tracking of the 4 bearing and damped vertical pivot into the 2 bearing 2 tube design. The 4 bearing still is superior in tracking warps, but the 2 bearing is superior laterally, if I could have both it would be fabulous.
In a shorter arm going for a lowest friction vertical pivot is alike taking a silicon damped pivoted arm and removing the damping, bass suffers and so does imaging.
Colin
In a shorter arm going for a lowest friction vertical pivot is alike taking a silicon damped pivoted arm and removing the damping, bass suffers and so does imaging.
Colin
no nothing like that.
fixed bearings on the track and a moving knife edge with the arm connected to the knife. there would be no bearings on the knife as they would be fixed to the track and the knife would move along the bearings.