Yes, they are 3 phase delta wound motors, so could be used as turntable motors.
Unfortunately they are 2 pole motors, so will run at 3000rpm with a 50hz supply, and 3600rpm with a 60 hz supply. Not sure what they were used for originally, I have an identical one. I was trying to see if I could find a way of running at a lower frequency but this wasn't very successful. The only way I can think of using them would be with a 2 stage belt system, say 1:10, then 1:8 or similar. To be honest you really need a minimum of a 4 pole motor to do it sensibly
Unfortunately they are 2 pole motors, so will run at 3000rpm with a 50hz supply, and 3600rpm with a 60 hz supply. Not sure what they were used for originally, I have an identical one. I was trying to see if I could find a way of running at a lower frequency but this wasn't very successful. The only way I can think of using them would be with a 2 stage belt system, say 1:10, then 1:8 or similar. To be honest you really need a minimum of a 4 pole motor to do it sensibly
The 3 phase ausenlaufeur is a 12 pole induction motor that runs at approximately 1740rpm on 60Hz. There are lots of 3 phase induction turntable motors if you know where to look and they all run just a bit below synchronous speed. (Rek-O-Cut, Fairchild and Empire used Papst and several U.S. made motors over time, most were actually delta connected 3 phase motors tricked into running on single phase. Quadrature synchronous hysteresis motors were common as well)
This motor is intended to be a direct drop in replacement for the E50 induction motor originally installed in the table, and may be (commonly) operated on single phase power. They were a replacement motor sold by Thorens in the late 1970s when they ran out of spare motors for service.
Papst Aussenlaufer
I in fact own the very motor discussed in this article.
I have several friends currently running these motors on 3 phase power in turntables (Empire and Fairchild)
This motor is intended to be a direct drop in replacement for the E50 induction motor originally installed in the table, and may be (commonly) operated on single phase power. They were a replacement motor sold by Thorens in the late 1970s when they ran out of spare motors for service.
Papst Aussenlaufer
I in fact own the very motor discussed in this article.
I have several friends currently running these motors on 3 phase power in turntables (Empire and Fairchild)
I have just integrated a quartz microprocessor frequency control unit from vpi...wonder if it would control the speed of a three phase motor with capacitor phase shift...could easily change voltage with step up xformer
Hi guys,
There are many variations of the Papst aussenlaufer motor, I have a few of them. They exist in differing sizes, number of poles (not to be confused with the number of windings), and in both asynchronous and synchronous versions.
All except one of my Papst motors is synchronous; if I run it at 50hz the speed is 1500 rpm exactly, and stays that way until the load exceeds the torque output and the motor stops.
Synchronous or asynchronous appears to be a function of the external rotor construction, with the synchronous version having some steel as opposed to soft iron in the construction.
I have a chart somewhere with different models and their output characteristics, I'll try to find it and publish it here.
There are many variations of the Papst aussenlaufer motor, I have a few of them. They exist in differing sizes, number of poles (not to be confused with the number of windings), and in both asynchronous and synchronous versions.
All except one of my Papst motors is synchronous; if I run it at 50hz the speed is 1500 rpm exactly, and stays that way until the load exceeds the torque output and the motor stops.
Synchronous or asynchronous appears to be a function of the external rotor construction, with the synchronous version having some steel as opposed to soft iron in the construction.
I have a chart somewhere with different models and their output characteristics, I'll try to find it and publish it here.
Ralph-
Thanks for posting the datasheet. I was working on a project for someone with a 901 8032 029 Papst motor (same as the 901 8032 006, but 115V) and could not locate any specs. The data sheet confirms most of what I experienced with that motor.
These motors are different than true synchronous types in that they have a much larger area where the speed slips with torque before they stall. They are synchronous for the light load the platter presents when running, but at start up, the speed drops under load.
I was also surprised how inefficient the Papst motors are. At 35W, they only produce ~4.1 Oz-In of torque (29mNm). The BLWS172 series motors are rated at double that (8 Oz-In/ 56mNm), but only consume 12W. I also tried the BLWS232S-24-1350 series (16W) which is rated at 16 Oz-In as well as the BLWS234S-45-1400 series (44W) which is rated at 42 Oz-In. They all work very well, but the 232/234 series require quite a different drive system to work properly (higher voltage and current).
As you noted, the main advantage of the Papst motor is the flywheel effect of the rotor and lack of cogging as the rotor is not a PM type. If you haven't tried the AA motors, they are almost as smooth regarding cogging. The Papst motor had a fair amount of 60HZ hum (vibration) where the AA motors did not, although the Papst motor was driven from single phase and AA motor was 3 phase. I believe the Papst 901 8032 006 was used in R2R tape decks for the capstan motor.
Thanks for posting the datasheet. I was working on a project for someone with a 901 8032 029 Papst motor (same as the 901 8032 006, but 115V) and could not locate any specs. The data sheet confirms most of what I experienced with that motor.
These motors are different than true synchronous types in that they have a much larger area where the speed slips with torque before they stall. They are synchronous for the light load the platter presents when running, but at start up, the speed drops under load.
I was also surprised how inefficient the Papst motors are. At 35W, they only produce ~4.1 Oz-In of torque (29mNm). The BLWS172 series motors are rated at double that (8 Oz-In/ 56mNm), but only consume 12W. I also tried the BLWS232S-24-1350 series (16W) which is rated at 16 Oz-In as well as the BLWS234S-45-1400 series (44W) which is rated at 42 Oz-In. They all work very well, but the 232/234 series require quite a different drive system to work properly (higher voltage and current).
As you noted, the main advantage of the Papst motor is the flywheel effect of the rotor and lack of cogging as the rotor is not a PM type. If you haven't tried the AA motors, they are almost as smooth regarding cogging. The Papst motor had a fair amount of 60HZ hum (vibration) where the AA motors did not, although the Papst motor was driven from single phase and AA motor was 3 phase. I believe the Papst 901 8032 006 was used in R2R tape decks for the capstan motor.
The performance of the Papst motors improves dramatically when run on 3 phase, MUCH more torque, smoother, and they run cooler too. Any comparison of the Papst motors when run on single phase to the BLDC motors has a built in handicap. Of course these motors are not commonly available, and requires a more complicated drive, using 3 amps and 3 step up transformers. Anyone lucky enough to have one of these excellent motors should go to the trouble of building a true 3 phase drive to take full advantage of them, and the capabilities of the SG4.
Since the SG4 eliminates (for all practical purposes) the variations of line voltage, and most importantly frequency (which the Papst motors lock unto), there is no need for any type of feedback loop to maintain speed stability. Rather than compensate for these variations, it is much better to eliminate them in the first place. IMO the combination of the SG4 and the Papst motors run on 3 phase is the ultimate solution for TT drive. Thanks again to Bill for making this kind of drive possible.
twystd
What model VPI controller do you have?
The early PLC touted "Microprocessor controlled" on the front panel, but it was all discrete logic with freq resolution of 0.1Hz. It was also a terrible output stage that produced extremely distorted and ringing square waves. Really not suitable for turntable use; probably OK to power a (small) soldering iron. I think they were good to ~15W.
The SDS had resolution of 0.01Hz (same as the SG4) and was microprocessor controlled, although it was rated to 20W but dropped voltage rather quickly after 15W. The SDS output was sinewave, much better than the PLC. People who have used the SDS on Lencos (15-20W) have reported disastrous results. The Papst motors are 20-35W.
If you use the SG4, you could run the motors in true 3 phase and the benefits of doing so would exceed a single phase controller. You would need to build a 3 channel 115VAC output amp, but there are examples out there from Ralphfcooke and twystd.
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I remember you advised for PEC11R-4220F-S0024 compare to current PEC11R-4220F-S0012 (#503).
BTW, Mouser and Digi-Key are out of stock for PEC11R-4220F-S0024.
I just ordered mine thought Allied.
Bourns - PEC11R-4220F-S0024 - Switch 20 mm Shaft 24 Detents Rotary Encoder - Allied Electronics & Automation
What did you do with GND legs?
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I snipped them off instead. No harm as I see it.
Yes, I'm experimenting to another one with slight difference in specifications with 12 pulses instead of 24. I ordered the new one on 4th and its on back order. The 24 pulse one is still in use on board, no worries. I gather the original China made is 20 pulses. Its an easy swap and knowing later if I like it or not. The OEM type figure is from a bit of googling whereas the Bourns datasheet document specific specifications to each model number.
There's another mod I did to the SG4 board. I swapped out all the R10-R17 resistors that link to my alternative 0.36" RED 7 segment display and reroute the wiring to match the pinout. It works fine, just that with 330ohm, the display is brighter towards orange than red compared with another AC output voltage RED display I installed to monitor the output voltage. I swapped out 750ohm resistors and both now look almost the equal brightness (bare face, no diffuser yet).
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I also use output voltage LED meter (almost same brightness and color as SG4 LED display) and have switch on the back to see Vout from each of my 2 transformers. Assume it will be used not that often, therefore I installed it on the back panel.
Front has defused taken from my old Sony DVD player. I use same box as was advised by Pyramid. Getting close to finish it.
Front has defused taken from my old Sony DVD player. I use same box as was advised by Pyramid. Getting close to finish it.
My stuff is still inside an old set top chassis where I'm at liberty to experiment anything inside I feel like doing. I recently installed a temporary output changeover toggle MAINS - OFF - SG4 switch so I can alternate flicking the switch between mains and SG4 output to tell sonic difference. Just a fun thing but who knows, could be a permanent feature in the final build. I've been fooling around with various mods, tweaks. Examples, install PC fan on the Class D amplifier, that stay. Alternating between buck supply and linear LM317 supply to SG4 with 3rd 18V transformer, etc, etc. Just playing with things I have lying around. Meanwhile I've access to an aluminum anodizing shop where I can easily anodize the front panel to some available colors. Eventually I will be buying a suitable aluminum chassis and will custom the front and rear panel layout to look fantastic. I hope I can come to implement a great design. On another note, I've been toying to go 2 phase capability. This may mean a larger chassis.
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Installed Bourns PEC11R-4220F-S0024 encoder and order of pulses is revered. Means, clockwise rotation is decreasing frequency count. For easy solution, I disordered it and installed on opposite side of encoder PCB (10k resistor SMD resistor side) and it is fine now. Pyramid’s encoder board is also flipped to allow to encoder to be installed on front panel. It seems fine now.
I only swapped the Up Down wires to the SG-4. Your issue happened to me on previous OEM encoder. How do you find the new encoder over the previous?
All the Arduino encoder pcb (with OEM encoder installed) I bought had one less pull up 10k resistor, I promptly installed one to make it look complete.
All the Arduino encoder pcb (with OEM encoder installed) I bought had one less pull up 10k resistor, I promptly installed one to make it look complete.