SY: Thanks!
Ergo: Thanks too, i understand and take your point. And i would also like to express that i think Kilowattski's project look very very nice!
grataku: ya ya i know ... tomato throwing is always good fun
All the best to everyone
Edit SY: You were right to remove the thread in question, it was maybe a bit close to advertising.
Ergo: Thanks too, i understand and take your point. And i would also like to express that i think Kilowattski's project look very very nice!
grataku: ya ya i know ... tomato throwing is always good fun
All the best to everyone
Edit SY: You were right to remove the thread in question, it was maybe a bit close to advertising.
Digi amps must have a future....
But to get to the point where they can compete with a class A, they have to solve the frquency issue they have in the top. I was explained that to extend the bandwidth, you have to run it at a higher switching frequency, wich results in high loss.
However once thats solved (if it can be solved that is), the next step is to get rid of the digi fingerprint. That should be possible by making it behave like a class A amp....you will simply have to induce distortion to make it sound good. This i cant see why it should not be possible, though it is not going to be me who will invent it
Magura
But to get to the point where they can compete with a class A, they have to solve the frquency issue they have in the top. I was explained that to extend the bandwidth, you have to run it at a higher switching frequency, wich results in high loss.
However once thats solved (if it can be solved that is), the next step is to get rid of the digi fingerprint. That should be possible by making it behave like a class A amp....you will simply have to induce distortion to make it sound good. This i cant see why it should not be possible, though it is not going to be me who will invent it
Magura
Okay, anyone have heard an ICE amp already, like this Acoustic reality stuff??
I'm curious how it will perform as bass amp for my active speaker setup
Aleph5 above 150 Hz (on C-Quenze/Accuton)
AR ICe below 150 hz (on Lambda SB12)
Or will the difference be to great and is it better to use an AlephX for the lows.
I'm curious how it will perform as bass amp for my active speaker setup
Aleph5 above 150 Hz (on C-Quenze/Accuton)
AR ICe below 150 hz (on Lambda SB12)
Or will the difference be to great and is it better to use an AlephX for the lows.
Magura said:But to get to the point where they can compete with a class A,
Magura
it is such a forgone conclusion that digi amps cannot compete with a class A? assuming that both are uptodate, of course.
has anyone done any testing to prove, or disapprove, the digital amps?
the panasonic digiamp for example has received high praises, as the integra digiamps. so it may not be such a stretch of imagination that the two are comparable in sound quality.
There's been a lot of talk about Panasonic digital amp on AA and it seems that when modified it can sound very good:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/38259.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/38259.html
My experience is based on zap pulse and ice.
None of those are even close to a class a amp.
They both could be used for a subwoofer, but nothing higher than that. For a sub its sure not a bad idea since all you really need is loads of power.(somewhat simplified that is..im aware of that)
I fail to remember the name of the panasonic i heard a while ago, but i sure were not impressed by that either.
In modified condition it may differ, since im sure this was a standard version.
Magura
None of those are even close to a class a amp.
They both could be used for a subwoofer, but nothing higher than that. For a sub its sure not a bad idea since all you really need is loads of power.(somewhat simplified that is..im aware of that)
I fail to remember the name of the panasonic i heard a while ago, but i sure were not impressed by that either.
In modified condition it may differ, since im sure this was a standard version.
Magura
I definitly don't agree on judgement on class-d amplifier and ice-p in particular.
The general statement that they are ok in the bass but not in the higher regions is soo very wrong. I would say the opposite actually.
I have 500 w mono blocks with 1400 VA / 140000uF and the don't think anything excels these amplifier in the mids and highs. The resolution and the ease in these amps are just breathtaking.
I think You need to audition a proper pair of these amps and I think You will change Your mind.
In fact, I stipulate that within 1 or 2 years, class D will rule the high end !
Other amps sounds like filters compared to these and if You have a not so good pre/source You will hear it.
So what is the difference - the representation of a musical event is so much more lifelike in my current amps than anything I have previosly heard.
/j
And yes - I have compared them to a pair of Class A amps and the only thing that was maybe better in the Class A amps was in fact the bass !
The general statement that they are ok in the bass but not in the higher regions is soo very wrong. I would say the opposite actually.
I have 500 w mono blocks with 1400 VA / 140000uF and the don't think anything excels these amplifier in the mids and highs. The resolution and the ease in these amps are just breathtaking.
I think You need to audition a proper pair of these amps and I think You will change Your mind.
In fact, I stipulate that within 1 or 2 years, class D will rule the high end !
Other amps sounds like filters compared to these and if You have a not so good pre/source You will hear it.
So what is the difference - the representation of a musical event is so much more lifelike in my current amps than anything I have previosly heard.
/j
And yes - I have compared them to a pair of Class A amps and the only thing that was maybe better in the Class A amps was in fact the bass !
I heard some audionet amps at a show yesterday. the guy told me that the processer monitors the signal at each stage of the amp and make any correction that is necessary.
Mmm... nice soundstaging, quite transparent and dynamic but some very obvious ( to me ) mid range hash/noise or something.
This was my first visit to a show - quite an eye opener
Some very expensive stuff sounded dreadful to my ears - no names !
Many of the modest setups sounded OK
Audionote and Sugden really played music and sounded natural
both Class A, both single ended I think.
The audionote was quite outstanding and it was not too outrageously priced - £3300 for the amp. Not bad considering it probably weighed about 60 pounds! ( 25 kilos )
Mmm... nice soundstaging, quite transparent and dynamic but some very obvious ( to me ) mid range hash/noise or something.
This was my first visit to a show - quite an eye opener
Some very expensive stuff sounded dreadful to my ears - no names !
Many of the modest setups sounded OK
Audionote and Sugden really played music and sounded natural
both Class A, both single ended I think.
The audionote was quite outstanding and it was not too outrageously priced - £3300 for the amp. Not bad considering it probably weighed about 60 pounds! ( 25 kilos )
TNT said:
As i wrote in an earlier post, i agree that the future may bring digi amps in on the high end scene.
To achieve that a digi amp though have to get rid of the brutally cold sound that is anything but ear pleasing.
Take the new Bang & Olufsen speakers that are powered by ice. Those represent a sad piece of engineering, though being SATO of digi amped actives. The mid is ok, nothing out of the ordinary, but the high is unpleasent in the long run. It may look very good when looking at the specs., but as most people know by now....specs actually says little about the actual experience the listener gets.
The problem with this discussion is that it is very subjective.
Distortion is a strange matter, since 1st harmonic distotion is of great importance and feels unpleasent, compared to 2nd and 3rd harmonic that can in some cases be even considered pleasent...even at much higher levels than those considered unpleasent of 1st harmonic.
Under any circumstances....
air is an analogue single ended medium, and should be treated as such.
Magura
Magura said:
Excuse my ignorence on two fronts but:
What is 1st harmonic distortion ? never heard this term before
Could you explain in nonmathematical terms
1) how air correlates to S/E amps, if that is what you meant.
2) and if it does correlate, why that means that S/E amps will interact with it via cables & speakers better than a P/P amps. Don't get me wrong I build and like S/E amps but I cannot at present see what the mechanics of this hypothosis are.
My S/E amps are balanced working - does this put them at a disadvantage in this respect ?
cheers
mike
To get an explanation of the different types of distortion id recommend you take a look at www.passdiy.com there its explained better than i can.
I dont know much about the different types of harmonic distortion. I know that class a amps tend to have 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion and little 1st harmonic distortion, whereas digi amps have more 1st harmonic distortion and little or none 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion.
I expect it being the 1st harmonic distortion that makes the digi amps sound unpleasent. This is an assumption, since i cant prove it. It is though the only difference between the sound of a digi and a class a worth mentioning as far as im concerned, and hence the only reasonable explanation i can come up with for the unpleasent sound of the mid and high of digi amps.
As for air being a single ended medium...thats a little easier to explain in lay mans language
It simply a matter of that air can be compressed (you can push with air as a pillow), but cant be strecthed (you cant pull anything with air in between).
Balanced topology is a matter of cancelling noise, and have nothing to do with SE or not.
Magura
I dont know much about the different types of harmonic distortion. I know that class a amps tend to have 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion and little 1st harmonic distortion, whereas digi amps have more 1st harmonic distortion and little or none 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion.
I expect it being the 1st harmonic distortion that makes the digi amps sound unpleasent. This is an assumption, since i cant prove it. It is though the only difference between the sound of a digi and a class a worth mentioning as far as im concerned, and hence the only reasonable explanation i can come up with for the unpleasent sound of the mid and high of digi amps.
As for air being a single ended medium...thats a little easier to explain in lay mans language
It simply a matter of that air can be compressed (you can push with air as a pillow), but cant be strecthed (you cant pull anything with air in between).
Balanced topology is a matter of cancelling noise, and have nothing to do with SE or not.
Magura
Magura said:I dont know much about the different types of harmonic distortion. I know that class a amps tend to have 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion and little 1st harmonic distortion, whereas digi amps have more 1st harmonic distortion and little or none 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion.
Magura
harmonics come from FFT analysis: it is basically trying to fit any waveform with an infinite number of sine waveforms, each at multiple of a "base" frequency.
for example, if you feed the amp a 1v, 1khz sine signal, and find the output signal to be a combination of a dc offset, some magnitute of a 1khz sine waveform, some magnitude of a 2khz sine waveform, and 3khz, 4khz ...
so the "1st order harmonics" is actually the desired signal itself. and all other signals (2khz, 3khz, 4khz and ...) are distortion. the dc offset can be considered as zero order harmonic.
so a "perfect amp" should have nothing but the input signal itself, at a higher magnitude.
in short, you cannot have "1st order harmonic distortion" (or it is "distortion" free,
).Magura said:It simply a matter of that air can be compressed (you can push with air as a pillow), but cant be strecthed (you cant pull anything with air in between).
Magura
you can stretch air as much as you can compress it. Vaccum for example is the extreme of air being stretched.
it may exist but I think it is hard to imagine a matter that can be compressed but not stretched.
Single ended nature of air is described on page 6 of this manual.
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/aleph/a0man.pdf
http://www.passlabs.com/pdf/aleph/a0man.pdf
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