Cal wrote;
“It might just be that we were sitting in a bad location.”
That could well be, most line arrays radiate a complex interference pattern and depend on self interference. As a result, they measure and sound differently left to right as well as front to back.
To make the comb filtering go away, actual high resolution measurements are not used and instead pretty colors are used to give the impression one is dealing with spot lights and not wavelengths which also cancel as well as add. One can easily hear this issue with even a small crosswind when the system is used outdoors.
When you can produce “enough” acoustic power from one constant directivity point source, one no longer radiates an interference pattern.
As a result the spectral balance is much more constant while moving left to right and front to back, no comb filtering.
Unlike line arrays, such a source does not have a maximum distance where past that it sound very different (no highs usually).
By taking advantage of the shape of the radiation lobe, one can aim that (the loudest portion) at the farthest ears and by having the source up in the air, use the bottom of the lobe to make the SPL near constant from the closest to farthest seat.
There is no reason one can’t have a powerful “hifi” experience in a stadium in fact when I sat at the farthest seats at BYU and listened to music, I thought, man, they really ought to show movies here.
THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHER’S ANEMIC BOWL STADIUM SOUND. DANLEY JERICHO HORNS AND SUBS DELIVER FULL FIDELITY TO BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY FOOTBALL FANS | BriefingRoom on MixOnline
If you listened to the two video’s I linked earlier, one can hear how uniform and “hifi” these sound even at 600-700 feet. Having a single broadband source makes a large difference in the sound.
Sometimes the players even notice (this sound system will be completed next after the south end stadium addition)
Rodgers Nice to be back at Lambeau - YouTube
Live Sound: Pro And College Sports Facilities Choose Danley - Pro Sound Web
Best,
Tom
“It might just be that we were sitting in a bad location.”
That could well be, most line arrays radiate a complex interference pattern and depend on self interference. As a result, they measure and sound differently left to right as well as front to back.
To make the comb filtering go away, actual high resolution measurements are not used and instead pretty colors are used to give the impression one is dealing with spot lights and not wavelengths which also cancel as well as add. One can easily hear this issue with even a small crosswind when the system is used outdoors.
When you can produce “enough” acoustic power from one constant directivity point source, one no longer radiates an interference pattern.
As a result the spectral balance is much more constant while moving left to right and front to back, no comb filtering.
Unlike line arrays, such a source does not have a maximum distance where past that it sound very different (no highs usually).
By taking advantage of the shape of the radiation lobe, one can aim that (the loudest portion) at the farthest ears and by having the source up in the air, use the bottom of the lobe to make the SPL near constant from the closest to farthest seat.
There is no reason one can’t have a powerful “hifi” experience in a stadium in fact when I sat at the farthest seats at BYU and listened to music, I thought, man, they really ought to show movies here.
THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHER’S ANEMIC BOWL STADIUM SOUND. DANLEY JERICHO HORNS AND SUBS DELIVER FULL FIDELITY TO BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY FOOTBALL FANS | BriefingRoom on MixOnline
If you listened to the two video’s I linked earlier, one can hear how uniform and “hifi” these sound even at 600-700 feet. Having a single broadband source makes a large difference in the sound.
Sometimes the players even notice (this sound system will be completed next after the south end stadium addition)
Rodgers Nice to be back at Lambeau - YouTube
Live Sound: Pro And College Sports Facilities Choose Danley - Pro Sound Web
Best,
Tom
I do not see to much chance for "operator error". The room EQs are locked up in a different equipment room after adjustment by the consultant. All the operator can do is turn on a mic and adjust the level and do a little EQ on the board. If the soundguy has a key to the equipment room and fiddled with the EQs: I would fire him/her!
My experience is that most soundguys never walk and listen to the venue, to bussy watching the game. Radio Shack University!
E
My experience is that most soundguys never walk and listen to the venue, to bussy watching the game. Radio Shack University!
E
That figures..
I suppose they left that large vertical cement band fully exposed - the one below the high row of seats and the next? A nice big cement echo chamber..
I suppose they left that large vertical cement band fully exposed - the one below the high row of seats and the next? A nice big cement echo chamber..
Newly refurbished BC Place stadium opened to the public last night. Great job they did and I was really looking forward to the "updated" sound system. The old air supported roof gave the impression of an echo chamber but at least you could hear what the announcer was saying. Can't say the same for the new stuff. Went from bad to really bad. Who the hell gets away with this ?
It's so good they didn't even want to put their name on it.
Doesn't seem much different, conceptually, to what Metallica were doing for their in-the-round stadium shows:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Felions (sic) cheers squad.
Perhaps a tummy tuck or two needed but what the heck, they don't get paid, this is their chance to live the dream.
Cal,
Goes both ways!
Jack got back to me wasn't his work. So I'll wait to see if anyone claims it.
ES
To 6BG6GA: Yes they did. They also voiced the opening (and closing) ceremony of EXPO86. There was a 5000+ strong choir of school kids from all over the province of BC and 120+ piece set of the Vancouver Symphony orchestra, each instrument miked seperately. The installed system was used, what a sound! No operator error there! E
The point source can work well. Last year I did clean and clear speech at 200 yards with a single compression driver and a little TOA amp. 1 Altec 290 on an 803 horn. Was shooting thru trees, even.
Not the broad bandwidth that Tom gets of course, but for just one compression driver it wasn't too shabby!
Not the broad bandwidth that Tom gets of course, but for just one compression driver it wasn't too shabby!
simon7000 found out who is to blame.
Live Sound: Clair Brothers Audio Systems & JBL VLA Line Arrays Raise The Roof At BC Place Stadium - Pro Sound Web
Live Sound: Clair Brothers Audio Systems & JBL VLA Line Arrays Raise The Roof At BC Place Stadium - Pro Sound Web
Geez 160 of them for a mere $8500 USD a pop.
Unbelievable.
Yeah I need to charge more for my systems! Of course they got a deal the price is going up 5% December 15th!
When I started doing large venues I didn't really see how you could spend more than a million dollars on a sound system. Back then 25 years ago you really didn't. It was the other systems, such as in house TV distribution and broadcast wiring that made the total price go way up.
Now keep in mind Cleveland's Jacob's Field was the first major venue to open without any complaints about the sound system. A real feat in itself. (Today due to improper upkeep the same cannot be said.)
Back then a high end loudspeaker was under $1000. As large venue sound systems actually started to work, owners were willing to spend more money and requested better systems.
What has happened is to go 10 db louder the costs go up at least 10 db.
Actually the issue you have is probably the difference between a line radiator and a spherical source.
Hi Cal
Ugh, great. Funny too, that is the same installer and I think the same system that is in the Penn state stadium where the demo link I had posted was. I don’t know how many are there but they are suppose to take them all out next spring and put in a few of our large point sources (three coupled point sources were used in that video).
On the up side for a large company that makes the stuff, the large interference pattern based arrays like that, while distinctly inferior in sound quality and directivity, are sensitive to wind and delivering highly position dependent sound are a great way to sell the maximum number of amplifiers, processors, speakers and drivers.
On the down side, it took two years after installation for the folks at Penn state to search for and eventually ask the score board company they had any ideas for a solution to their unacceptable sound.
After a short demo, they said design us a system which will be installed next spring.
On the face book page, there is a recording from the Atlanta dome, another stadium with big name line arrays, compare that sound to the video from Penn state or mic check at Lambau field.
Danley Sound Labs, Inc. | Facebook
A real point source only has one direct arrival, not a train of arrivals.
Best
Tom Danley
Ugh, great. Funny too, that is the same installer and I think the same system that is in the Penn state stadium where the demo link I had posted was. I don’t know how many are there but they are suppose to take them all out next spring and put in a few of our large point sources (three coupled point sources were used in that video).
On the up side for a large company that makes the stuff, the large interference pattern based arrays like that, while distinctly inferior in sound quality and directivity, are sensitive to wind and delivering highly position dependent sound are a great way to sell the maximum number of amplifiers, processors, speakers and drivers.
On the down side, it took two years after installation for the folks at Penn state to search for and eventually ask the score board company they had any ideas for a solution to their unacceptable sound.
After a short demo, they said design us a system which will be installed next spring.
On the face book page, there is a recording from the Atlanta dome, another stadium with big name line arrays, compare that sound to the video from Penn state or mic check at Lambau field.
Danley Sound Labs, Inc. | Facebook
A real point source only has one direct arrival, not a train of arrivals.
Best
Tom Danley
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