Thanks for the advice... Yep, I've been following Graham's stuff since I entered DIY... was never ready for actualy building any though, before I learned some skills with the DX...
Hehe the board looks like a transformer robot's head now.yep thats howa robot's head looks when its eyes pop out of their sockets...
Hehe the board looks like a transformer robot's head now.yep thats howa robot's head looks when its eyes pop out of their sockets...
Attachments
Good Gaetan...i want to listen you...long conversation we gonna have into direct mail
those things are pleasant to me....thank you to tell me the truth.
People are reserved about that subject...now a days...in our world, there are crashes about religions... not good thing to forum...thank you.
regards,
Carlos
......................................................................................................
Nordic
Nice board, now that you have an excelent digital photo machine you are giving me a lot of pleasure watching pictures...you know i love those things.
The flash explode hard...well...you know...not very good into metals..... because reflections.... we use some varnish to cover boards to produce nice pictures without that strong brigth reflections.
I have posted something about board capacitance and inductance.... also tuned circuits and those things...i hope you had interest on that....man!... this is something i have understood beeing a CBer and a Ham Radio Operator during 30 years continuously.... and it is something that will make you understand better those board misteries people use to say...
I would be happy that you take some time to read, and post questions about, into direct mails or even into the forum...
Why?.... well.... one of the best thing i have learned during those HAM years.... and giving you for free.... i hope will be usefull of someone in this thread.
regards,
Carlos
those things are pleasant to me....thank you to tell me the truth.
People are reserved about that subject...now a days...in our world, there are crashes about religions... not good thing to forum...thank you.
regards,
Carlos
......................................................................................................
Nordic
Nice board, now that you have an excelent digital photo machine you are giving me a lot of pleasure watching pictures...you know i love those things.
The flash explode hard...well...you know...not very good into metals..... because reflections.... we use some varnish to cover boards to produce nice pictures without that strong brigth reflections.
I have posted something about board capacitance and inductance.... also tuned circuits and those things...i hope you had interest on that....man!... this is something i have understood beeing a CBer and a Ham Radio Operator during 30 years continuously.... and it is something that will make you understand better those board misteries people use to say...
I would be happy that you take some time to read, and post questions about, into direct mails or even into the forum...
Why?.... well.... one of the best thing i have learned during those HAM years.... and giving you for free.... i hope will be usefull of someone in this thread.
regards,
Carlos
Nordic...this text is my Christmas gift...in advance to you
Thank you Graham.... about condensers Nordic Post #3092
They are capacitors too.... as you know have capacitance and normally bigger than the ones we use to call capacitor.
If you understand that a piece of wire is an inductor...and if straigth will be a very small value of inductor and that real capacitors mounted into the circuit, or, copper lines running parallel that will behave alike air core metal capacitors...you will understand that you have capacitance and inductance into every board.
Inductance and capacitance together, will create a "ressonant frequency"... and that frequency will be consequence of how big are a capacitor and how big is the inductor.
If you want some practical example, lets colect a 27 picofarads capacitor, a ceramic one and we can produce a coil, having three turns, and 4 milimeters diameters.... the coil will have the capacitor into its extremes....this will tune, will ressonate, around 100 Megahertz....increasing the condenser..you will tune 80 megahertz or less... increasing the inductor after this capacitor increase, you will have 60 Megahertz.
Of course, decreasing will do the oposite..... decreasing capacitor and decreasing inductor you will have bigger frequencies...till you will have a single coil....or a half coil...and them a piece of wire... with 13 milimeters long.... having capacity around.... into this peace of wire extremes...and it can be a small copper line into the printed board that will colect signal from the feedback transistor to the lifted ground as an example,.... well, this piece of wire, having capacitances around..forming, creating, producing, capacitance together other piece of copper line..and them..ready..you have tuned 300 Megahertz.
If you have a transistor able to oscilate into this frequency, your carrier of radio frequency will start in the moment you bias the transistor connected to this ressonant pair... inductance plus capacitance.
When you increase the capacitor...frequency goes down, and there's a formula for this purpose... using high capacitances, as electrolitic condensers, so big as 22uf, you will tune a very low ressonance frequency....let's imagine 1 cicle each 10 seconds for instance... this will not make the amplifier oscilate...but in certain sittuations you can have this infra, low frequency oscilations too...when audible they call this motor boating.
I hope this clarify a little the board inductances and capacitances, that will bother you if you use high speed transistors... units that can work 100 Megahertz or more will be subjected to those oscilations, will be under the ressonating frequencies you will have into a pc board....
So... distance of trances must be big...say..parallel lines must not go too long creating Long capacitances... distance between lines..big gaps means lower capacitance formed...so...space between lines is important.
Short copper lines means low inductance..low inductances will tune Very High Frequencies.. the VHF spectrum goes to 300 Megahertz and start around 35 Megahertz i think (not precise, just an idea).... so.... your transistors, not working into 200 Megahertz, will probable be free of problems...the ones that cannot go over 10 megahertz will be much more safe...and the opposite is our now a days tradition...to have nice slew rate (and easy of oscilations too... some of them happens driven by the signal that enters the stage... when in stand by mode nothing happens... entering signal.. then the oscilator is triggered to "on" mode.
Audio cables must not run parallel because of that...also one pick the audio from the other and create capacitor plates... two plates of metal form a capacitor, also two pieces of wire, 1 inch long, twisted one over the other will create 5 to 10 picofarads of capacitance...and this, together some inductance (ahahaha...the wire twisted is the inductor)..than oscilations will start... from 200 to 400 megahertz...within this bandwidth for sure.
So.... the selection of high speed units is dangerous and a very good idea is to avoid.
Thank you Graham.... about condensers Nordic Post #3092
They are capacitors too.... as you know have capacitance and normally bigger than the ones we use to call capacitor.
If you understand that a piece of wire is an inductor...and if straigth will be a very small value of inductor and that real capacitors mounted into the circuit, or, copper lines running parallel that will behave alike air core metal capacitors...you will understand that you have capacitance and inductance into every board.
Inductance and capacitance together, will create a "ressonant frequency"... and that frequency will be consequence of how big are a capacitor and how big is the inductor.
If you want some practical example, lets colect a 27 picofarads capacitor, a ceramic one and we can produce a coil, having three turns, and 4 milimeters diameters.... the coil will have the capacitor into its extremes....this will tune, will ressonate, around 100 Megahertz....increasing the condenser..you will tune 80 megahertz or less... increasing the inductor after this capacitor increase, you will have 60 Megahertz.
Of course, decreasing will do the oposite..... decreasing capacitor and decreasing inductor you will have bigger frequencies...till you will have a single coil....or a half coil...and them a piece of wire... with 13 milimeters long.... having capacity around.... into this peace of wire extremes...and it can be a small copper line into the printed board that will colect signal from the feedback transistor to the lifted ground as an example,.... well, this piece of wire, having capacitances around..forming, creating, producing, capacitance together other piece of copper line..and them..ready..you have tuned 300 Megahertz.
If you have a transistor able to oscilate into this frequency, your carrier of radio frequency will start in the moment you bias the transistor connected to this ressonant pair... inductance plus capacitance.
When you increase the capacitor...frequency goes down, and there's a formula for this purpose... using high capacitances, as electrolitic condensers, so big as 22uf, you will tune a very low ressonance frequency....let's imagine 1 cicle each 10 seconds for instance... this will not make the amplifier oscilate...but in certain sittuations you can have this infra, low frequency oscilations too...when audible they call this motor boating.
I hope this clarify a little the board inductances and capacitances, that will bother you if you use high speed transistors... units that can work 100 Megahertz or more will be subjected to those oscilations, will be under the ressonating frequencies you will have into a pc board....
So... distance of trances must be big...say..parallel lines must not go too long creating Long capacitances... distance between lines..big gaps means lower capacitance formed...so...space between lines is important.
Short copper lines means low inductance..low inductances will tune Very High Frequencies.. the VHF spectrum goes to 300 Megahertz and start around 35 Megahertz i think (not precise, just an idea).... so.... your transistors, not working into 200 Megahertz, will probable be free of problems...the ones that cannot go over 10 megahertz will be much more safe...and the opposite is our now a days tradition...to have nice slew rate (and easy of oscilations too... some of them happens driven by the signal that enters the stage... when in stand by mode nothing happens... entering signal.. then the oscilator is triggered to "on" mode.
Audio cables must not run parallel because of that...also one pick the audio from the other and create capacitor plates... two plates of metal form a capacitor, also two pieces of wire, 1 inch long, twisted one over the other will create 5 to 10 picofarads of capacitance...and this, together some inductance (ahahaha...the wire twisted is the inductor)..than oscilations will start... from 200 to 400 megahertz...within this bandwidth for sure.
So.... the selection of high speed units is dangerous and a very good idea is to avoid.
Attachments
Re: Nordic...this text is my Christmas gift...in advance to you
Hello
Some comercial amp use those Formula 1 high speed transistors as output, but they need to put decoupling caps and kill the sound, but nothing oscillated, so thier honnor are safe.
In the 80's, I did have a 60 watt Crimson amp using 2N3055 and 2955 output transistors, and even with those slow transistor, to avoid to much decoupling caps, they have a filter at the input, and the coil at output. It was sound very good but was not the best way to do since I don't think it's good to cut the input at 20k hz.
Gaetan
destroyer X said:
Hello
Some comercial amp use those Formula 1 high speed transistors as output, but they need to put decoupling caps and kill the sound, but nothing oscillated, so thier honnor are safe.
In the 80's, I did have a 60 watt Crimson amp using 2N3055 and 2955 output transistors, and even with those slow transistor, to avoid to much decoupling caps, they have a filter at the input, and the coil at output. It was sound very good but was not the best way to do since I don't think it's good to cut the input at 20k hz.
Gaetan
Yes...honor is safe...the High speed publicity was strong those days
and the capacitors were there to block possible oscilations and killing the sonics.
I also think that 20 Kilohertz is not a good idea....better to go above that.... we do not listen...but maybe we feel.
There are moments of our lifes that we feel attracted by our wives...we also do not feel nothing special..but something powerfull move us.
Bell sound...some metal sound has a lot of harmonics, and many of them are above our audibility limits.... timbre....maybe timber or something alike in English, is connected to those harmonics, this is what make you differentiate from a cymbal or metal hitted and a bell sound...and those rich informations are into the wave envelope reaching higher frequencies compared the ones we can listen.
We perceive losses clearly when you introduce filtering into the amplifier input... a low pass filter...blocking frequencies above the audibility limit....and other amplifier, without the filter, sounds better and you perceive the bells more clear... and then you invert those amplifiers and you confirm your test once more...and than you produce the same test blinded, also confirm!
But how?.... we do not listen those frequencies...how?.... maybe the filtered one has small losses into the top end frequencies you can listen.... and this may be fooling us...maybe.... maybe.
Maybe we feel.... something happens...into skin...or more probable is that timpanic membrane move and produce electrical signal be sent to the brain.... this presence, not translated by the brain as a recognizing sound, may be translated as presence of sound..that something is present...presence.
Well...this enter the chapter of beliefs... a very crazy thing... and i do not feel myself able to discuss..the maximum i can say is my opinion.... i would be happy to listen others too.
regards,
Carlos
.........................................................................................................
Nordic.
About Ressonating.... tune circuits, radio frequency and oscilations.
Oh!..that's excelent Nordic.... this drives me very happy, as i could cooperate..you will see how good will be this knowledge to you...
regards,
Carlos
and the capacitors were there to block possible oscilations and killing the sonics.
I also think that 20 Kilohertz is not a good idea....better to go above that.... we do not listen...but maybe we feel.
There are moments of our lifes that we feel attracted by our wives...we also do not feel nothing special..but something powerfull move us.
Bell sound...some metal sound has a lot of harmonics, and many of them are above our audibility limits.... timbre....maybe timber or something alike in English, is connected to those harmonics, this is what make you differentiate from a cymbal or metal hitted and a bell sound...and those rich informations are into the wave envelope reaching higher frequencies compared the ones we can listen.
We perceive losses clearly when you introduce filtering into the amplifier input... a low pass filter...blocking frequencies above the audibility limit....and other amplifier, without the filter, sounds better and you perceive the bells more clear... and then you invert those amplifiers and you confirm your test once more...and than you produce the same test blinded, also confirm!
But how?.... we do not listen those frequencies...how?.... maybe the filtered one has small losses into the top end frequencies you can listen.... and this may be fooling us...maybe.... maybe.
Maybe we feel.... something happens...into skin...or more probable is that timpanic membrane move and produce electrical signal be sent to the brain.... this presence, not translated by the brain as a recognizing sound, may be translated as presence of sound..that something is present...presence.
Well...this enter the chapter of beliefs... a very crazy thing... and i do not feel myself able to discuss..the maximum i can say is my opinion.... i would be happy to listen others too.
regards,
Carlos
.........................................................................................................
Nordic.
About Ressonating.... tune circuits, radio frequency and oscilations.
Oh!..that's excelent Nordic.... this drives me very happy, as i could cooperate..you will see how good will be this knowledge to you...
regards,
Carlos
No, uncle charly, I just rebiased the boards, as I modified both...with the large caps on the output.
Movie ended, so I could wire up the speakers quickly
I think the 100nf over the gain resistor was way too much ... or maybe it is the combimation of that and what graham said about less bass and better bass, + the cap...
will remove the cap in the morning, way too little bass or too much treble as it is now... astonishingly clear though.. no harshness.. but I feel like a bat with it like this...
Movie ended, so I could wire up the speakers quickly
I think the 100nf over the gain resistor was way too much ... or maybe it is the combimation of that and what graham said about less bass and better bass, + the cap...
will remove the cap in the morning, way too little bass or too much treble as it is now... astonishingly clear though.. no harshness.. but I feel like a bat with it like this...
Yay, first trial fit and all looks good, workable at least. It's late here so a post then bed.
I need to allow for bigger input caps. The spade connectors could be a challenge to fit. I need to check the 220nf caps I bought today, different markings and one is smaller than the other. And I must remember to buy some 4r7 resistors, I'm always forgetting these.
So, ignoring the above caveats, tomorrow or Monday I could be making noises, or maybe just smoke. I have only 2 bd140's so one channel only unless I can find something to strip
Humm. I think I can reduce the space allowed for C8. The big question is, what happened to C17 ?
I need to allow for bigger input caps. The spade connectors could be a challenge to fit. I need to check the 220nf caps I bought today, different markings and one is smaller than the other. And I must remember to buy some 4r7 resistors, I'm always forgetting these.
So, ignoring the above caveats, tomorrow or Monday I could be making noises, or maybe just smoke. I have only 2 bd140's so one channel only unless I can find something to strip
Humm. I think I can reduce the space allowed for C8. The big question is, what happened to C17 ?
Attachments
Harmonic integrity and quality of sound
Carlos
I think that you are correct. The mechanism by which we are aware of these higher order harmonics, and their influence on the sound of musical instruments, and indeed, the difference between female voices,in particular.,does not so far, appear to have been definitively explained.
Gaetan
Which Mr. Slee are you referring to ? Graham Slee from GSP Audio has similar beliefs about the need for harmonic retention, as high as the 8th harmonic ! Even back in the original valve amplifier days, I was taught that an amplifier should have a minimum frequency response of 3-5 times the highest audible frequency.
I think they were being conservative back then.
SandyK
Carlos
I think that you are correct. The mechanism by which we are aware of these higher order harmonics, and their influence on the sound of musical instruments, and indeed, the difference between female voices,in particular.,does not so far, appear to have been definitively explained.
Gaetan
Which Mr. Slee are you referring to ? Graham Slee from GSP Audio has similar beliefs about the need for harmonic retention, as high as the 8th harmonic ! Even back in the original valve amplifier days, I was taught that an amplifier should have a minimum frequency response of 3-5 times the highest audible frequency.
I think they were being conservative back then.
SandyK
Good Nordic....understood now..... Ecat!...professional boards...great!
Congratulations...but after the power rail regulators you do not need big condensers...they will not bother, but will be some overkill..... say...those input side electrolitic condensers are not bad...they sound fine...helps a lot...but using the electronic regulator that is a capacitance multiplier, this may be some waste of money.
Very nice boards...how could you print those names over the board dear Ecat?... have you done that?....nice!
Thank you Gaetan and SandyK...good that we have something to agree..but also...not having others to disagree we will not have new things to think about.... no input for us...i hope someone enter to complete our ideas or to show us other way to understand those things.
regards,
Carlos
Congratulations...but after the power rail regulators you do not need big condensers...they will not bother, but will be some overkill..... say...those input side electrolitic condensers are not bad...they sound fine...helps a lot...but using the electronic regulator that is a capacitance multiplier, this may be some waste of money.
Very nice boards...how could you print those names over the board dear Ecat?... have you done that?....nice!
Thank you Gaetan and SandyK...good that we have something to agree..but also...not having others to disagree we will not have new things to think about.... no input for us...i hope someone enter to complete our ideas or to show us other way to understand those things.
regards,
Carlos
Harmonic integrity and quality of sound
My feeling is that certain frequencies set off a resonance within the structure of the ear. These resonances are either sufficient to directly trigger an electrical signal to the brain, or are somehow shifted down in frequency, mechanical coupling perhaps, to a point in the audio spectrum to which the ear is sensitive.
If this were true then the experience would be highly individual, I cannot begin to guess at the range of frequencies that could apply.
As for the listener, they may not even hear the above effect. They may simply be aware of its absence, or require its presence in order for a certain instrument or voice to sound correct.
Enough of my 2am pseudo science.
My feeling is that certain frequencies set off a resonance within the structure of the ear. These resonances are either sufficient to directly trigger an electrical signal to the brain, or are somehow shifted down in frequency, mechanical coupling perhaps, to a point in the audio spectrum to which the ear is sensitive.
If this were true then the experience would be highly individual, I cannot begin to guess at the range of frequencies that could apply.
As for the listener, they may not even hear the above effect. They may simply be aware of its absence, or require its presence in order for a certain instrument or voice to sound correct.
Enough of my 2am pseudo science.
Re: Good Nordic....understood now..... Ecat!...professional boards...great!
I will not be using those monsters after the rail regulators, 220uF is enough for me. They appeared on at least one of the early schematics so I made provision for them on the board, I guess you always have the option of not using the regulator.
You like the names ? lol. The picture is flattering, the top side text and graphics look quite messy in real life. I use a laser printer and the toner transfer method, http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/wiki/Toner_Transfer , to etch the boards. I used exactly the same method for the top text then applied a coat of pcb lacquer.
It was an experiment really, the first step towards making double sided boards. The top / bottom alignment is far from perfect, but even as a first attempt it is close enough for any boards I'm likely to make.
destroyer X said:
I will not be using those monsters after the rail regulators, 220uF is enough for me. They appeared on at least one of the early schematics so I made provision for them on the board, I guess you always have the option of not using the regulator.
You like the names ? lol. The picture is flattering, the top side text and graphics look quite messy in real life. I use a laser printer and the toner transfer method, http://pcbwiki.philpem.me.uk/wiki/Toner_Transfer , to etch the boards. I used exactly the same method for the top text then applied a coat of pcb lacquer.
It was an experiment really, the first step towards making double sided boards. The top / bottom alignment is far from perfect, but even as a first attempt it is close enough for any boards I'm likely to make.
Please Nordic, do not make input connections too long into sensitivity parts of the
amplifier...alike input for instance... you may produce an aerial and pick noises and interferences from local broadcasting, computers clock generators and many other electrical appliances.
Of course you can use sub board to the input and connect it using coaxial cable to the main board...but... long cable has capacitances and depending the length can eat trebles....because of that, i imagine, people say that cable sounds..for sure..if defective, too much long, having to much resistance, inductance and capacitance, will sound.
I do not believe that a good cable, without anyone of those problems will modify sonics.... well...related that i have made some testings, but i had not those special golden cable...i will not buy those ones to test...no way..no chance.
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
Ecat.
That idea to the shift down makes sense..as the ear plus brain works into bio chemical mode...when reactions are not into the speed of ligth...this seems that fast slew rate is transformed by ear plus brain into another wave form...no square wave to brain...just different sinusoidal waves...distorted sinusoidal waves...so...two cicles be transformed into one cicle, for instance is a big possibility.
About condensers...yes...for sure, i have asked you the provision of room to condensers to allow people the option, to use the electronic rail regulator of big condensers...this is good and it is all rigth.
Understood the use of laser printer...good result.
regards,
Carlos
.....................................................................................................
Thank you Gaetan.
Also by your books about the born of the Universe.
I am already reading... i think i will print to read into a more confortable position.
regards,
Carlos
amplifier...alike input for instance... you may produce an aerial and pick noises and interferences from local broadcasting, computers clock generators and many other electrical appliances.
Of course you can use sub board to the input and connect it using coaxial cable to the main board...but... long cable has capacitances and depending the length can eat trebles....because of that, i imagine, people say that cable sounds..for sure..if defective, too much long, having to much resistance, inductance and capacitance, will sound.
I do not believe that a good cable, without anyone of those problems will modify sonics.... well...related that i have made some testings, but i had not those special golden cable...i will not buy those ones to test...no way..no chance.
regards,
Carlos
........................................................................................................
Ecat.
That idea to the shift down makes sense..as the ear plus brain works into bio chemical mode...when reactions are not into the speed of ligth...this seems that fast slew rate is transformed by ear plus brain into another wave form...no square wave to brain...just different sinusoidal waves...distorted sinusoidal waves...so...two cicles be transformed into one cicle, for instance is a big possibility.
About condensers...yes...for sure, i have asked you the provision of room to condensers to allow people the option, to use the electronic rail regulator of big condensers...this is good and it is all rigth.
Understood the use of laser printer...good result.
regards,
Carlos
.....................................................................................................
Thank you Gaetan.
Also by your books about the born of the Universe.
I am already reading... i think i will print to read into a more confortable position.
regards,
Carlos
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