69stingray said:
I think so too! The impedance looks nice because I am not including BFC in my filter. If I was, you would see the characteristic peak around 1-2khz.
I still have some tweaking to do. The speaker is about 1db too sensitive in the crossover region. I'm holding off until I take some 1m gated measurements before I change things more. For a first try mostly using parts I had on hand, I don't think it's bad.
I planned on building a speaker with the Dayton PT2B-8 about a year ago, but was turned off by the requried high xover frequency. Keep us posted on your progress.
Have you tried using the target slope feature of the FRD PCD spreadsheet? I found it very helpful. If you are willing to email your ZMA and FRD files, I'd be happy to take a stab at it.
danspublic AT gmail DOT com
Dan
This thread is over one year old. Does interest in this five-inch woofer still exist? I do have a combination "glue ring on the cone and plug replacing dust cap" modification for this transducer. It smooths the response and increases the possible number of crossover designs.
The modifications will not bring this transducer to full range capability. That is why I have never published the modification.
Mark
The modifications will not bring this transducer to full range capability. That is why I have never published the modification.
Mark
Mark I'd be interested to see the results of your work. I'm just now finishing a design with this woofer and I'm quite happy with performance for the dollar: http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28282
Mark,
I had given up on the idea of an affordable (cheap) full range driver, for the time being. I bought a half dozen of these Tang Band W5-704 drivers when they were on sale for $15. I also picked up a couple of the W6-789 drivers (because they have such a high sensitivity). I suppose it was foolish of me to keep buying various cheap drivers instead of one good pair, but, alas, that's what I've done... For $15 each, and the design & build quality, these woofers seem like a great bargain though.
I'd be interested in using your glue ring mod to improve a couple sets of these woofers. For the phase plug, was there anything particular that you found made a difference, or is the the fairly standard typical rounded cone shape phase plug the best?
I'll try something like these: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117599&highlight=
And probably build something like these (except with the W5 sealed and a slightly larger woofer in the bottom, and, a different tweeter):
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29620
I was also considering trying something where the woofer is firing straight up, or, angled slightly towards the wall placed as close to the wall as possible, and also, again, as close to the wall as possible, but angled out slightly and well below ear level....
I had given up on the idea of an affordable (cheap) full range driver, for the time being. I bought a half dozen of these Tang Band W5-704 drivers when they were on sale for $15. I also picked up a couple of the W6-789 drivers (because they have such a high sensitivity). I suppose it was foolish of me to keep buying various cheap drivers instead of one good pair, but, alas, that's what I've done... For $15 each, and the design & build quality, these woofers seem like a great bargain though.
I'd be interested in using your glue ring mod to improve a couple sets of these woofers. For the phase plug, was there anything particular that you found made a difference, or is the the fairly standard typical rounded cone shape phase plug the best?
I'll try something like these: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117599&highlight=
And probably build something like these (except with the W5 sealed and a slightly larger woofer in the bottom, and, a different tweeter):
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29620
I was also considering trying something where the woofer is firing straight up, or, angled slightly towards the wall placed as close to the wall as possible, and also, again, as close to the wall as possible, but angled out slightly and well below ear level....
Mark,
It seemed like all the transducers that you had published modifications for are no longer available in the exact model? Since this driver is still available, and, a fairly good value (seems to be the general consensus) that anyone making the information available as to how to make modifications that make significant improvements is doing the DIY community a service.
Seems like whenever (with a few exceptions) it becomes well known that a particular driver is particularly good, it gets discontinued, or, changed slightly in production.
It seemed like all the transducers that you had published modifications for are no longer available in the exact model? Since this driver is still available, and, a fairly good value (seems to be the general consensus) that anyone making the information available as to how to make modifications that make significant improvements is doing the DIY community a service.
Seems like whenever (with a few exceptions) it becomes well known that a particular driver is particularly good, it gets discontinued, or, changed slightly in production.
I think there is still interest.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=397468#post397468
I have had other priorities and never got my design off paper. The drivers are ordered, but that is about it.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=397468#post397468
I have had other priorities and never got my design off paper. The drivers are ordered, but that is about it.
I completed performance work on the transducer but never wrote it up. That will take a little time. Until then, I present the simple details for the basic modification.
There are three glue rings applied to the cone. For this modification you may use even Elmer's Craft Bond. The typical applicator tip opening on a bottle of Elmer's is 1.5 mm in diameter. This is a good diameter for the bead of each glue ring. As the glue dries it will settle and spread out just a bit.
The center glue ring is placed 5 mm in from the surround inside trim ID. (This is a very easy reference point on the front side of the cone.) Allow this first ring to dry. Then apply two additional rings inside and outside of the first. One wet edge of each new glue ring should just touch the now dried glue ring.
The dust cap is replaced with a simple cylinder plug. Diameter is about 31/32 inches. The cylinder is 24 mm tall (about one-inch). A very simple shape.
As I prepare the modification document, I will also recheck the design. This may result in refinements. If so, they should be easy to implement. The document will include the usual stock and modified performance comparisons.
Mark
There are three glue rings applied to the cone. For this modification you may use even Elmer's Craft Bond. The typical applicator tip opening on a bottle of Elmer's is 1.5 mm in diameter. This is a good diameter for the bead of each glue ring. As the glue dries it will settle and spread out just a bit.
The center glue ring is placed 5 mm in from the surround inside trim ID. (This is a very easy reference point on the front side of the cone.) Allow this first ring to dry. Then apply two additional rings inside and outside of the first. One wet edge of each new glue ring should just touch the now dried glue ring.
The dust cap is replaced with a simple cylinder plug. Diameter is about 31/32 inches. The cylinder is 24 mm tall (about one-inch). A very simple shape.
As I prepare the modification document, I will also recheck the design. This may result in refinements. If so, they should be easy to implement. The document will include the usual stock and modified performance comparisons.
Mark
Thanks Mark 
Do you think it's important that the glue rings have three seperate humps, or, would one flat glue ring of the same width as the three have the same result, if it was approx. the same mass?
What do you think about using a phase plug made out of sound absorbing materials such as felt, wool, or other natural fibers held in the appropriate shape?
Does the three glue ring mod address the most significant problem with the cone that you were able to find?
Do you think the mod has enough effect that the modded speaker would sound "better" than the stock, as opposed to being a very subtle difference where one would say "I think I hear a slight difference, but I'm not sure"?
I'm sure at least a few of us (including me) will try the mods for ourselves anyway, but I'm interested to hear your subjective opinion on the matter further.
I guess putting a copper ring at the base of the phase plug would be a waste of time, since it would be too far out of the gap to have any meaningful effect.
Do you think the straight ring shape is better than say, a zig-zag ring shape? And, do you think it is important that the glue being used is fairly stiff, as opposed to say, mortite, or something like bitumen?
Have you come to the conclusion that the thin aluminum tape used on heating ducts is not a very effective device for addressing undesireable cone vibration modes?
Do you think it's important that the glue rings have three seperate humps, or, would one flat glue ring of the same width as the three have the same result, if it was approx. the same mass?
What do you think about using a phase plug made out of sound absorbing materials such as felt, wool, or other natural fibers held in the appropriate shape?
Does the three glue ring mod address the most significant problem with the cone that you were able to find?
Do you think the mod has enough effect that the modded speaker would sound "better" than the stock, as opposed to being a very subtle difference where one would say "I think I hear a slight difference, but I'm not sure"?
I'm sure at least a few of us (including me) will try the mods for ourselves anyway, but I'm interested to hear your subjective opinion on the matter further.
I guess putting a copper ring at the base of the phase plug would be a waste of time, since it would be too far out of the gap to have any meaningful effect.
Do you think the straight ring shape is better than say, a zig-zag ring shape? And, do you think it is important that the glue being used is fairly stiff, as opposed to say, mortite, or something like bitumen?
Have you come to the conclusion that the thin aluminum tape used on heating ducts is not a very effective device for addressing undesireable cone vibration modes?
Zaph said:
I see you are busy with some even bigger bass to fry ;-)
http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html
Originally posted by critofur WITH INSERTED RESPONSES BY MARKMCK
Thanks Mark
Do you think it's important that the glue rings have three seperate humps, or, would one flat glue ring of the same width as the three have the same result, if it was approx. the same mass?
THE GLUE WILL DRY ALMOST FLAT. ONE FLAT RING OF THE SAME MASS WILL BE AS EFFECTIVE. IT WILL ALSO BE MUCH HARDER TO APPLY.
What do you think about using a phase plug made out of sound absorbing materials such as felt, wool, or other natural fibers held in the appropriate shape?
AS I STATE IN MY PLUG PATENT APPLICATION, MATERIAL IS NOT IMPORTANT AS LONG AS IT WILL DISPLACE/REGULATE THE CRITICAL AIR MASS. I SUGGEST WOOD ONLY BECAUSE OF ITS AVAILABILITY AND EASE OF DIMENSIONING. WHEN USING FELT AND WOOL IT WILL BE MORE DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE THE HEIGHT DIMENSION (IMPORTANT).
Does the three glue ring mod address the most significant problem with the cone that you were able to find?
YES. THERE ARE, HOWEVER, SMALLER VIBRATION MODES THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED AND WILL BE DETAILED IN THE COMING ARTICLE. THERE WILL ALSO BE A CHANGE TO THE SURROUND.
Do you think the mod has enough effect that the modded speaker would sound "better" than the stock, as opposed to being a very subtle difference where one would say "I think I hear a slight difference, but I'm not sure"?
THE MODDED TRANSDUCER WILL SOUND MORE ACCURATE AND NEUTRAL THAN THE STOCK. WE KNOW THAT EVEN IN XAB CONDITIONS FREQUENCY RESPONSE DIFFERENCES AS SMALL AS 1/4 dB CAN BE HEARD. THE DIFFERENCES HEAR WILL BE MANY TIMES THAT. AFTER FULL MOD, I AM CLAIMING WORLD CLASS (AS IN BEST OF CLASS) PERFORMANCE.
I'm sure at least a few of us (including me) will try the mods for ourselves anyway, but I'm interested to hear your subjective opinion on the matter further.
I guess putting a copper ring at the base of the phase plug would be a waste of time, since it would be too far out of the gap to have any meaningful effect.
TO BE EFFECTIVE A COPPER SHORTING RING MUST BE IN THE GAP. I KNOW THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE MADE CLAIMS FOR COPPER OUTSIDE THE GAP, BUT YOU SURELY REMEMBER WHAT PTBARNUM ALWAYS SAID.
Do you think the straight ring shape is better than say, a zig-zag ring shape? And, do you think it is important that the glue being used is fairly stiff, as opposed to say, mortite, or something like bitumen?
THESE QUESTIONS HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH WHY THE MODS WORK. YOU MIGHT READ MY "DIMPLE" PATENT APPLICATION TO BETTER UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM DOING.
Have you come to the conclusion that the thin aluminum tape used on heating ducts is not a very effective device for addressing undesireable cone vibration modes?
I AM NOT PROMOTING A MAGIC BULLET PROCESS. THE MATERIALS SPECIFIED ARE SPECIFIED FOR VALID REASONS. IF YOU ARE ABLE TO VERIFY THE IMPACTS OF MODIFICATIONS TO THE MODIFICATION, THEN GO FORTH AND DO. IF NOT, YOU COULD MAKE PERFORMANCE QUALITY MUCH WORSE.
The reason I visited this thread today was to update readers on transducer availability and model number changes.
I just telephoned Parts Express and talked to "Steve." He stated that the current model number for the transducer was "W5-704D." That seems strange. It may be that he meant to say "W5-704SD." Regardless, once again, the model numbers are changing.
Parts Express is also out of stock on the W5-704D (or maybe W5-704SD) until June 30, 2008. When the new stock arrives the end of June, there may be yet another model number for it.
For this one transducer, I will acquire the new model number when it arrives and adjust the modification as required. There is no need to buy the W5-704S from anyone who, for example, bought 12, stored them in a closet, and now may sell them (unless they offer you a great deal to take them off their hands). Let this be a buyer's market and not a seller's.
If the reader, however, is one of the people who stocked up when the transducer was on sale, feel free to offer to share. Just be reasonable in the pricing.
Lastly, I plan to include a tweeter option and crossover in addition to the modification instructions. It will be an interesting option and take advantage of the modified transducers minus three dB response to 14 kHz.
Mark
I just telephoned Parts Express and talked to "Steve." He stated that the current model number for the transducer was "W5-704D." That seems strange. It may be that he meant to say "W5-704SD." Regardless, once again, the model numbers are changing.
Parts Express is also out of stock on the W5-704D (or maybe W5-704SD) until June 30, 2008. When the new stock arrives the end of June, there may be yet another model number for it.
For this one transducer, I will acquire the new model number when it arrives and adjust the modification as required. There is no need to buy the W5-704S from anyone who, for example, bought 12, stored them in a closet, and now may sell them (unless they offer you a great deal to take them off their hands). Let this be a buyer's market and not a seller's.
If the reader, however, is one of the people who stocked up when the transducer was on sale, feel free to offer to share. Just be reasonable in the pricing.
Lastly, I plan to include a tweeter option and crossover in addition to the modification instructions. It will be an interesting option and take advantage of the modified transducers minus three dB response to 14 kHz.
Mark
I got some W5-704D when I ordered some during the D.O.T.D. $15 special a couple months back. They're not shielded as are the ones shown on the Part's Express page.
You said to use Elmer's Craft glue? It's different than the standard Elmer's White glue I guess? I went to a couple stores, didn't find it, think I'll have any luck finding some at Wal-Mart? Or would I have to go to somewhere like Hobby Barn?
Any particular reason you used that one instead of the GemTac that you used before?
From what you've said it sounds like with the mod done the W5 should be capable of an excellent simple 1st order crossover at ~ 2 - 3 Khz (crossing that "low" to avoid exessively narrow dispersion).
If some shape of phase plug is capable of increasing hf dispersion that would be the icing on the cake.
I had been trying designs with deflectors kind of like the Mirage "omni" speakers well before Mirage came out with theirs, but was not satisfied with the results enough for it to become a commercial product. I was also quite dissapointed when I auditioned B&O's Beolab top of the line speakers.
I would love to finally succeed in finding some sort of dispersion device to get ~ 30 degree disperson beyond 5 Khz from a 5" woofer (that does not iteself introduce significant problems degrading the sound quality).
At this point, my main goal is to simply have a pair of speakers that sound good enough that listening to music can once again be enjoyable to me [w/o having to spend $20,000].
I have not heard any speakers that I really liked over the past ten years other than the Revel Salon Ultima's at $20K, but even those speakers had significant flaws when listening to certain types of music. By no means am I saying that those speakers are excellent in every regard, but, they were fun to listen to, to me.
You said to use Elmer's Craft glue? It's different than the standard Elmer's White glue I guess? I went to a couple stores, didn't find it, think I'll have any luck finding some at Wal-Mart? Or would I have to go to somewhere like Hobby Barn?
Any particular reason you used that one instead of the GemTac that you used before?
From what you've said it sounds like with the mod done the W5 should be capable of an excellent simple 1st order crossover at ~ 2 - 3 Khz (crossing that "low" to avoid exessively narrow dispersion).
If some shape of phase plug is capable of increasing hf dispersion that would be the icing on the cake.
I had been trying designs with deflectors kind of like the Mirage "omni" speakers well before Mirage came out with theirs, but was not satisfied with the results enough for it to become a commercial product. I was also quite dissapointed when I auditioned B&O's Beolab top of the line speakers.
I would love to finally succeed in finding some sort of dispersion device to get ~ 30 degree disperson beyond 5 Khz from a 5" woofer (that does not iteself introduce significant problems degrading the sound quality).
At this point, my main goal is to simply have a pair of speakers that sound good enough that listening to music can once again be enjoyable to me [w/o having to spend $20,000].
I have not heard any speakers that I really liked over the past ten years other than the Revel Salon Ultima's at $20K, but even those speakers had significant flaws when listening to certain types of music. By no means am I saying that those speakers are excellent in every regard, but, they were fun to listen to, to me.
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