I have old, crude measuring tools but I will post the results I'm getting.
Zeroing my meter at 100hz I get +1db @70hz -7db @ 50hz -10db @ 40hz -16db @ 30hz -20db @ 20hz from the 4' tall BIB in the corner.
I've been playing rock and blues through these little guys for the past two evenings now with the 300B amp. I'm getting nice bass and the amp cant push them enough to make them bottom out.
Zeroing my meter at 100hz I get +1db @70hz -7db @ 50hz -10db @ 40hz -16db @ 30hz -20db @ 20hz from the 4' tall BIB in the corner.
I've been playing rock and blues through these little guys for the past two evenings now with the 300B amp. I'm getting nice bass and the amp cant push them enough to make them bottom out.
Hi Stew -
Thought I'd coined the term but highly unlikely. Lot of designs seeking to do same.
Please post link when your design gets published. I'm all over of late and missing stuff I'd like to follow. I'd really be interested in what your doing.
I was gona shoot for ElectroVoice next but just may hold off til I can afford A.L.'s . Seems like the best choice for those of us that will never be able to afford Feastrix.
I'm gona start a new thread with queries regards this subject, don't want to hijack this thread.
Bluto
Thought I'd coined the term but highly unlikely. Lot of designs seeking to do same.
Please post link when your design gets published. I'm all over of late and missing stuff I'd like to follow. I'd really be interested in what your doing.
I was gona shoot for ElectroVoice next but just may hold off til I can afford A.L.'s . Seems like the best choice for those of us that will never be able to afford Feastrix.
I'm gona start a new thread with queries regards this subject, don't want to hijack this thread.
Bluto
hi, Guys!
I was just wondering if this driver could be used in MLTL bipole. Just like Griffin's. For some whacky reason I seem to gravitate towards bipole. The price on this drivers and seeming reviews would suggest a great candidate. Any suggestion? Dimensions? Could they be used in the same design as Griffins or MLTL for TB871, as suggested by Scottmoose in Lancetta thread?
bassrogue, how do they compare to your Pioneer, which you seem to like very much in the BIB configuration?
I was just wondering if this driver could be used in MLTL bipole. Just like Griffin's. For some whacky reason I seem to gravitate towards bipole. The price on this drivers and seeming reviews would suggest a great candidate. Any suggestion? Dimensions? Could they be used in the same design as Griffins or MLTL for TB871, as suggested by Scottmoose in Lancetta thread?
bassrogue, how do they compare to your Pioneer, which you seem to like very much in the BIB configuration?
The Pioneer A11 will go louder and take more power. I believe they go down a few more hz. too.
The RS100 is clearer and has more bass down to maybe 70-80hz.but not nearly as much volume. The RS100 will bottom out quite easy. The A11 never has, yet. I'll have to pour the coal to the A11 just to see how far it will go.
Maybe the RS100 would take more power if it were in the correct BIB instead of mine that are for the A11. That would be a question for Mr.Scottmoose
The RS100 is clearer and has more bass down to maybe 70-80hz.but not nearly as much volume. The RS100 will bottom out quite easy. The A11 never has, yet. I'll have to pour the coal to the A11 just to see how far it will go.
Maybe the RS100 would take more power if it were in the correct BIB instead of mine that are for the A11. That would be a question for Mr.Scottmoose
supertweeters and all that... FR OB....
OK folks. I am going to make a couple of comments that are not intended to offend any body, but may offend everybody (equally) here (I don't discriminate).
I find that my hearing is quite sensitive to too much top end, but my nephew (a drummer) seeks the last bit of sparkle on the Crashes and China Hats, and he's proven to me he has good hearing (he's 27, been playing the drums actively for 20 years+ and has always used hearing protection!---somebody has taught him right)
My general take or recommendations regarding super tweeters and BSCs etc,: plan on using them, but try the OBs without first. You may be surprised at the outcome
stew
OK folks. I am going to make a couple of comments that are not intended to offend any body, but may offend everybody (equally) here (I don't discriminate).
- many folks who state the a BSC is required possibly haven't heard the speaker without one
- some OBs can make a good amount of bass on there own
- smaller drivers obviously will go higher in frequency then larger ones
- smaller drivers are usually more responsive than larger ones (less moving mass)
- some people have better hearing than others and miss the last bit of "sparkle"
I find that my hearing is quite sensitive to too much top end, but my nephew (a drummer) seeks the last bit of sparkle on the Crashes and China Hats, and he's proven to me he has good hearing (he's 27, been playing the drums actively for 20 years+ and has always used hearing protection!---somebody has taught him right)
My general take or recommendations regarding super tweeters and BSCs etc,: plan on using them, but try the OBs without first. You may be surprised at the outcome
stew
The RS100s sound better than the A11s in every way, IMO. They actually have a lower Fs, too. I don't know why PE shows 70Hz on the product page when if you go to the Sample Response Graphs they provide, you can plainly see they've measured at least on at 109.14 Hz, while we've had the RS100-8s reliably measured by Zaph at 87.953 Hz. The mids are much smoother and flatter. The highs are smoother and more extended. The 8ohm version is also a very good OB driver whereas the A11s really start rolling off up close to 150Hz.
On the flip side, the A11s are much more sensitive than the the Daytons, and they cost a little over a third as much. They are perfectly listenable and also mate well with a very reasonably sized, not to mention easy to build (heck, I did it, it must be, right?) BiB enclosure which can easily eek out good response more than a full octave under their Fs for very little money (built my set from particle board and cheap 1"x6" pine, so with drivers and terminals and whatnot, cost less than $50 for the pair and took only 2-3 hours of my completely unskilled time). They live in my non-audiophile buddy's large, high ceilinged living room, and and they can easily fill the space on the 50-60 watts a broken down cheapy Pioneer receiver can put to them. He loves how they sound, and all his family and other friends that happen by are constantly asking where the sub or other drivers are. In fact, it was very hard to convince one fellow that there weren't other drivers hidden inside the box (these are floor loaded, firing out the back at the bottom, so it looks like a very solid, sealed box except for that).
Anyway, yeah, the A11s are probably still winners on bang for buck, but for the price, I really wanted to try stepping up the SQ a notch, and even thought he value may not quite be there since the RS100s are nearly $30 (they are, shipped), $30 for a fullranger isn't all that much (ahem, alot of Tang Bands, Fostex, Lowther, et al), and these have alot of very emphatic advantages over the A11, and I still can't recommend them highly enough. Seriously, if everyone had the chance to hear what I'm hearing, PE would probably go out of stock on these things constantly.
Kensai
On the flip side, the A11s are much more sensitive than the the Daytons, and they cost a little over a third as much. They are perfectly listenable and also mate well with a very reasonably sized, not to mention easy to build (heck, I did it, it must be, right?) BiB enclosure which can easily eek out good response more than a full octave under their Fs for very little money (built my set from particle board and cheap 1"x6" pine, so with drivers and terminals and whatnot, cost less than $50 for the pair and took only 2-3 hours of my completely unskilled time). They live in my non-audiophile buddy's large, high ceilinged living room, and and they can easily fill the space on the 50-60 watts a broken down cheapy Pioneer receiver can put to them. He loves how they sound, and all his family and other friends that happen by are constantly asking where the sub or other drivers are. In fact, it was very hard to convince one fellow that there weren't other drivers hidden inside the box (these are floor loaded, firing out the back at the bottom, so it looks like a very solid, sealed box except for that).
Anyway, yeah, the A11s are probably still winners on bang for buck, but for the price, I really wanted to try stepping up the SQ a notch, and even thought he value may not quite be there since the RS100s are nearly $30 (they are, shipped), $30 for a fullranger isn't all that much (ahem, alot of Tang Bands, Fostex, Lowther, et al), and these have alot of very emphatic advantages over the A11, and I still can't recommend them highly enough. Seriously, if everyone had the chance to hear what I'm hearing, PE would probably go out of stock on these things constantly.
Kensai
Nanook: I liked your old avatar much better. Each paragraph below addresses one of your bullet points.
BSC isn't always required, but it's something that's very important to consider. If you listen nearfield, you probably don't need it. The further back you go the more important it is, and if you're getting response with a baffle shelf (or OB rolloff) it does need correction.
Yup, as an example, my current OBs are only about 20" tall and 32" wide (average, it's a trapezoid) and make plenty of boom. Takes a very serious motor to get decent efficiency, a low Fs, and modest to high Qts, but fortunately, the woofer (JBL 123A) is more than up to the task (90 dB, 25Hz, .48 Qts). I still use a sub, and I think that (almost) everyone should, possibly with the inclusion of a high-pass filter on the mains at a very low frequency, depending on the speakers.
A generality, but mostly true, given similar design styles. A fullrange style 3" like the FF85k goes higher than many 1" dome tweeters, due to the different design types, and likewise, a lowther 8" goes much higher than most "Hifi" 6.5" woofers.
MMs has been somewhat debunked as to the sense of 'responsiveness' or 'speed'. While naturally smaller drivers have an advantage in terms of high frequencies due to the physics involved, this "responsive" character is largely tied to the inductance and corresponding phase shift of the drivers. I think that the lower MMs drivers advantage is largely driven by lighter, lower power handling, lower inductance coils, and higher Qms, which reduces any 'memory effect' of the suspension.
I definitely need good response very high, and very low. A lot of spatial cues exist at the frequency extremes, and even with a bandwidth limited source, you still can see that a sub that can dig super deep or a tweeter than can sing super high will quite possibly have advantages within the source passband. And naturally, with less bandwidth limitations, they are freed up to do even more.
You're right, try them first without supertweeters and BSC. Make sure that when you implement something, it's actually an improvement. As humans, we're prone to labeling changes as better.
BSC isn't always required, but it's something that's very important to consider. If you listen nearfield, you probably don't need it. The further back you go the more important it is, and if you're getting response with a baffle shelf (or OB rolloff) it does need correction.
Yup, as an example, my current OBs are only about 20" tall and 32" wide (average, it's a trapezoid) and make plenty of boom. Takes a very serious motor to get decent efficiency, a low Fs, and modest to high Qts, but fortunately, the woofer (JBL 123A) is more than up to the task (90 dB, 25Hz, .48 Qts). I still use a sub, and I think that (almost) everyone should, possibly with the inclusion of a high-pass filter on the mains at a very low frequency, depending on the speakers.
A generality, but mostly true, given similar design styles. A fullrange style 3" like the FF85k goes higher than many 1" dome tweeters, due to the different design types, and likewise, a lowther 8" goes much higher than most "Hifi" 6.5" woofers.
MMs has been somewhat debunked as to the sense of 'responsiveness' or 'speed'. While naturally smaller drivers have an advantage in terms of high frequencies due to the physics involved, this "responsive" character is largely tied to the inductance and corresponding phase shift of the drivers. I think that the lower MMs drivers advantage is largely driven by lighter, lower power handling, lower inductance coils, and higher Qms, which reduces any 'memory effect' of the suspension.
I definitely need good response very high, and very low. A lot of spatial cues exist at the frequency extremes, and even with a bandwidth limited source, you still can see that a sub that can dig super deep or a tweeter than can sing super high will quite possibly have advantages within the source passband. And naturally, with less bandwidth limitations, they are freed up to do even more.
You're right, try them first without supertweeters and BSC. Make sure that when you implement something, it's actually an improvement. As humans, we're prone to labeling changes as better.
badman, comments on your comments on my comments...
really the only thing I can comment on, given your responses (which I think had been well thought out) is the avatar...
it was in respoinse to a GB gone bad.... I first changed my avatar to a blank. A week later, the custom, fictional, stealth Walther PPK, a la James Bond.
Which old avatar? Nanook of the North (a non fictional Inuit who died of starvation 8 months after the NFB "Nanook of the North" was filmed) or the "Richard Feynman" avatar?
I agree that BSC and super tweeters should be added as needed, not automatically.
stew
really the only thing I can comment on, given your responses (which I think had been well thought out) is the avatar...
it was in respoinse to a GB gone bad.... I first changed my avatar to a blank. A week later, the custom, fictional, stealth Walther PPK, a la James Bond.
Which old avatar? Nanook of the North (a non fictional Inuit who died of starvation 8 months after the NFB "Nanook of the North" was filmed) or the "Richard Feynman" avatar?
I agree that BSC and super tweeters should be added as needed, not automatically.
stew
Please don't be dissapointed that a 3 inch driver, which, also, happens to be running full range, is not the right speaker to use for going down to 40 Hz! (unless, perhaps, you made them in to headphonesKensai said:
- they're small enough you COULD use them has headphone drivers!).I just got a pair (of the 4 ohm) last night, they look very nice, will listen to them this weekend. I'm thinking to pair them up with:
This: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035 (I'll try for 1st order 1st)
And this: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-164 (got 4 at $19 ea)
Something like mini "Aethers" ( http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-aethers )
Re: badman, comments on your comments on my comments...
Thanks, I try to think before typing most of the time
Either of the older avatars was preferred... something about the image of the pistol didn't sit well with me. I don't know why the pistol struck me as it did, perhaps because I think of audio and music as escapes from hard reality.... and what represents the harshness of reality better than a pistol, something designed for the sole purpose of killing.....
Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age!
Kensai:
critofur has a point, it's pretty dramatic to expect a driver like this to do stuff down near 40. I'm prone to using 12s and 15s for that sort of range, and most good 12s and 15s (woofers, not subs) start rolling off near 40 in typical box alignments.
Nanook said:
Thanks, I try to think before typing most of the time
Either of the older avatars was preferred... something about the image of the pistol didn't sit well with me. I don't know why the pistol struck me as it did, perhaps because I think of audio and music as escapes from hard reality.... and what represents the harshness of reality better than a pistol, something designed for the sole purpose of killing.....
Maybe I'm just getting soft in my old age!
Kensai:
critofur has a point, it's pretty dramatic to expect a driver like this to do stuff down near 40. I'm prone to using 12s and 15s for that sort of range, and most good 12s and 15s (woofers, not subs) start rolling off near 40 in typical box alignments.
Relax guys. I didn't actually expect them to go that low, regardless of any BiB wizardry. Its just that from initial experimentation, it looked like, maybe, with correct loading on the driver to keep excursion down a bit, that, again, maybe, it might be able to do it. It still might. I have no proof, and frankly, I'm not going to be making much sawdust in the near future, so that experiment will have to wait. For now its just a fanciful idea of this tiny driver being able to eliminate the need for a sub in my house (I don't need much below 40Hz and can usually live happily as long as I can get to an honest 50Hz).
critofur,
IMO, these things absolutely do not need supertweets. In fact, when running test tones, this is the first driver that I've ever been able to reproduceably hear the fundamental of a 20kHz tone. I've got B&G Neo3PDR tweeters right near by in my desk/test rig, and I can't make out much above 16kHz from them. In fact, until I got these, I thought that I was deaf above 16kHz ;-p
Anyway, I ordered one of these Dayton APA150 while they're on special and I'll be using it to actively cross helper woofers on OB to go with the RS100. Nice, versatile looking unit, should let me experiment to my heart's content. I'll be starting with the 8" woofers out of my Yamaha NS-6940s which have proven they can go down into the 40s on OB. If its a good experiment, I'll probably be moving up to some big, cheap Goldwood, high Qts, low FS drivers to really get some bottom end.
Kensai
critofur,
IMO, these things absolutely do not need supertweets. In fact, when running test tones, this is the first driver that I've ever been able to reproduceably hear the fundamental of a 20kHz tone. I've got B&G Neo3PDR tweeters right near by in my desk/test rig, and I can't make out much above 16kHz from them. In fact, until I got these, I thought that I was deaf above 16kHz ;-p
Anyway, I ordered one of these Dayton APA150 while they're on special and I'll be using it to actively cross helper woofers on OB to go with the RS100. Nice, versatile looking unit, should let me experiment to my heart's content. I'll be starting with the 8" woofers out of my Yamaha NS-6940s which have proven they can go down into the 40s on OB. If its a good experiment, I'll probably be moving up to some big, cheap Goldwood, high Qts, low FS drivers to really get some bottom end.
Kensai
Whatever it is, it sounds good. Flat, at least how it sounds to my ears, as I can clearly hear the tone as I slide up from 16kHz to 20kHz. Even looking at Zaph's response graphs, it hardly looks like a breakup like what I'm used to hearing in larger aluminum cones.
critofur, are you planning to cross out the RS100's top end to merge it to the Dayton dome?
Kensai
critofur, are you planning to cross out the RS100's top end to merge it to the Dayton dome?
Kensai
Kensai wrote:
"IMO, these things absolutely do not need supertweets. In fact, when running test tones, this is the first driver that I've ever been able to reproduceably hear the fundamental of a 20kHz tone. I've got B&G Neo3PDR tweeters right near by in my desk/test rig, and I can't make out much above 16kHz from them. In fact, until I got these, I thought that I was deaf above 16kHz ;-p"
My experience matches yours. Like new glasses for my ears!
I finished my Audiosector gainclone about two weeks ago and wasted no time trying it with the only drivers I had on hand; a pair of RS100S-8s mounted in two 16" x 24" x 1/4" hardboard panels. The sound was startlingly clean, detailed, pure, albeit lacking in bass for the most part. I planned to try them in BiBs but succumbed to self-doubt and decided to build something by recipe rather than winging it.
A couple days ago I cobbled cabinets based on the Jordan VTL/Konus Essence design for the JX92S*, which I was planned to order. Well, curiosity won out and I mounted these little guys. God, they sound great, even in boxes clearly not intended for them. Problem is, these are so fine from water-clear highs down to growly bass that's in the room, I can't bring myself to change a thing. Actually, I removed the foam behind the magnet (in the plans) to get back the highs I'd enjoyed from my OB experience. Fact is, I'm now satisfied. Wildly so.
Why would this work? Am I an utterly ignorant newbie? A tasteless tyro? A self-deluded audio philistine? Should I still get the Jordans?
Openly Baffled in SW FL (David in Venice)
*http://documents.jordan-usa.com/jx92_system.html
"IMO, these things absolutely do not need supertweets. In fact, when running test tones, this is the first driver that I've ever been able to reproduceably hear the fundamental of a 20kHz tone. I've got B&G Neo3PDR tweeters right near by in my desk/test rig, and I can't make out much above 16kHz from them. In fact, until I got these, I thought that I was deaf above 16kHz ;-p"
My experience matches yours. Like new glasses for my ears!
I finished my Audiosector gainclone about two weeks ago and wasted no time trying it with the only drivers I had on hand; a pair of RS100S-8s mounted in two 16" x 24" x 1/4" hardboard panels. The sound was startlingly clean, detailed, pure, albeit lacking in bass for the most part. I planned to try them in BiBs but succumbed to self-doubt and decided to build something by recipe rather than winging it.
A couple days ago I cobbled cabinets based on the Jordan VTL/Konus Essence design for the JX92S*, which I was planned to order. Well, curiosity won out and I mounted these little guys. God, they sound great, even in boxes clearly not intended for them. Problem is, these are so fine from water-clear highs down to growly bass that's in the room, I can't bring myself to change a thing. Actually, I removed the foam behind the magnet (in the plans) to get back the highs I'd enjoyed from my OB experience. Fact is, I'm now satisfied. Wildly so.
Why would this work? Am I an utterly ignorant newbie? A tasteless tyro? A self-deluded audio philistine? Should I still get the Jordans?
Openly Baffled in SW FL (David in Venice)
*http://documents.jordan-usa.com/jx92_system.html
Not sure what these cabinets are. I'm guessing they're transmission lines. TLs can be very forgiving of the driver, especially if they're over sized for what you put in, which very well might be the case here.
MJK and some others are supposedly in the process of getting the Jordans, so there should be some more expert testimony for them shortly if you can hold off on the purchase decision. If you're wildly satisfied, my real advice would be to finish the cabs if they're not already, put them into their permanent locations and simply enjoy. The fact that you're here virtually insures that you'll be back at some point, but at some point, the critical listening has to stop and life has to begin.
Enjoy.
Kensai
MJK and some others are supposedly in the process of getting the Jordans, so there should be some more expert testimony for them shortly if you can hold off on the purchase decision. If you're wildly satisfied, my real advice would be to finish the cabs if they're not already, put them into their permanent locations and simply enjoy. The fact that you're here virtually insures that you'll be back at some point, but at some point, the critical listening has to stop and life has to begin.
Enjoy.
Kensai
Hi,
Am I missing something ?
0.8 Qts, Fs 83Hz and Vas 1.4L repeat 1.4L .... 0.05cuft
They work well in cabinets designed for bigger drivers with lower
Fs, ~ 3x cone area, and typically around 6 to 8 times the Vas ?
...... do me favour ......
Not that I'm they do not do something in said cabinets but it would
seem to me highly unlikely it would look pretty if they were measured.
/sreten.
Am I missing something ?
0.8 Qts, Fs 83Hz and Vas 1.4L repeat 1.4L .... 0.05cuft
They work well in cabinets designed for bigger drivers with lower
Fs, ~ 3x cone area, and typically around 6 to 8 times the Vas ?
...... do me favour ......
Not that I'm they do not do something in said cabinets but it would
seem to me highly unlikely it would look pretty if they were measured.
/sreten.
EDIT:
Nevermind, I'm an idiot. There's a clearly displayed label on the picture of these speakers on the partsexpress site... Made in Taiwan
------------
Hi,
Could anyone check the label for country of origin? I'm finding on the net that Dayton Audio has production in US and China, but I can't find where these particular speakers are made...
Cheers,
Mitch
Nevermind, I'm an idiot. There's a clearly displayed label on the picture of these speakers on the partsexpress site... Made in Taiwan
------------
Hi,
Could anyone check the label for country of origin? I'm finding on the net that Dayton Audio has production in US and China, but I can't find where these particular speakers are made...
Cheers,
Mitch
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