I really do hope that some of the 10 guys will join this discussion. Maybe even Janils himself, and tell the trouth about this audition 
Please Kanils, come into this thread and confirm your "High End reference position" during the entire audition.
I made a drawing of the general placements in the listening room at Kurt von Kubik's basement. Take a look:
As you can see, the famous HiFi writer "Janils" just aout the worst position in the room, and stayed there during the whole audition. Please take a look, and decide if you feel this is the right position for reviewing high end audio gear.
Also, have a look at some of the reference gear from this club of audio enthusiasts. Who are they o call anything "a piece of crap"??
I can't imagine how it sounds...
BTW: Nilau, the other guy talking bad about our DAC... He was the one owning the AN. Imaging why he likes it the best. Funny thing is, that he did not during the audition
Actually he almost forgot the AN DAC when going home. He must really like it
So once again.... I hope more of the 10 guys will join this thread.....
Please Kanils, come into this thread and confirm your "High End reference position" during the entire audition.
I made a drawing of the general placements in the listening room at Kurt von Kubik's basement. Take a look:
As you can see, the famous HiFi writer "Janils" just aout the worst position in the room, and stayed there during the whole audition. Please take a look, and decide if you feel this is the right position for reviewing high end audio gear.
Also, have a look at some of the reference gear from this club of audio enthusiasts. Who are they o call anything "a piece of crap"??
I can't imagine how it sounds...
BTW: Nilau, the other guy talking bad about our DAC... He was the one owning the AN. Imaging why he likes it the best. Funny thing is, that he did not during the audition
Actually he almost forgot the AN DAC when going home. He must really like it
So once again.... I hope more of the 10 guys will join this thread.....
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Apparantly they talked about it going home, since Jan Nielsen wrote that not only him, but also the other was about to loose their temper during the visit.
The position of Jan Nielsen a little to the left should mean nothing in a decent listening room, so if you say his position is the reason for his conclusion, you also says that the listening room is not good at all. And one obvious have to ask the logical question; if you knew his position was not good, why did you not insist on him moving to the hotspot ?
The position of Jan Nielsen a little to the left should mean nothing in a decent listening room, so if you say his position is the reason for his conclusion, you also says that the listening room is not good at all. And one obvious have to ask the logical question; if you knew his position was not good, why did you not insist on him moving to the hotspot ?
I really do hope that some of the 10 guys will join this discussion. Maybe even Janils himself, and tell the trouth about this audition
Please Kanils, come into this thread and confirm your "High End reference position" during the entire audition.
I made a drawing of the general placements in the listening room at Kurt von Kubik's basement. Take a look:
As you can see, the famous HiFi writer "Janils" just aout the worst position in the room, and stayed there during the whole audition. Please take a look, and decide if you feel this is the right position for reviewing high end audio gear.
Also, have a look at some of the reference gear from this club of audio enthusiasts. Who are they o call anything "a piece of crap"??
I can't imagine how it sounds...
BTW: Nilau, the other guy talking bad about our DAC... He was the one owning the AN. Imaging why he likes it the best. Funny thing is, that he did not during the audition
Actually he almost forgot the AN DAC when going home. He must really like it
So once again.... I hope more of the 10 guys will join this thread.....
Shifting to defensive mode. The egos have been hit broadside by a torpedo.......... Accept it that music is also part of the build process. Just because it looks great in the design process does not mean that it will be an emotional satisfying component. The AN is a superb DAC for music lovers, no doubt.
Maybe you should ask some of your club friends, if they remember better than you. Actually KvK and me was about to start the music, when some of you guys asked if we could tell them more about the DAC and the rest of the setup first.
I guess the problem is, that if the sound has not been manipulated through some transformer, you just do not like it.
As stated earlier...the "peasants" are quite polite people, so we didn't go into some heated discussions at the time. And I guess, that the sheer amount of technical arrogance we were exposed to, made us temporarily numb...
So, IMHO the "best DAC on Planet" needs some work to be done...
Perhaps you can gather some useful information at www.diyaudio.com ?
I'm sure you'll find some highly skilled technicians there, who would be happy to help you "reconstruct" your DAC to a decent 2009-standard.
Regards
Nilau
You claim to be very polite.... If this is the case, I really do not understand, why you all told us how impressed you were at the audition, and now on a safe distance, you suddently think this is the worst you ever heard. If I did something like that, I would think of myself a being a coward
But I may very well be wrong... 
But now that you are in here. Could you please take the time to either confirm or reject the fact, the the famous HiFi writer "Janils", was seated exactely as shown in the attached picture??
If you can confirm the positioning of famous HiFi writer "Janils", maybe you could also give us your best opinion on this position when reviewing HiFi. I wonder if this is standard procedure
In that case, I really understand why he is that famous To me it seems like reviewing the race-track performance of a car, while sleeping in the back-seat.
I wonder how many review he has been doing, while having the vacum-cleaner running in the same room.
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I guess he was also sitting there when he heard the Audio Note play music or did he move to the sofa for this?
He did not move an inch, except from going upstairs for some Pizza.
But he did mention, that he was deeply impressed by the DALI speakers used in the audition. But somehow he suddently turned 180 degrees...
Guess that's why he is a famous HiFi writer
First of all, we do not know the ESS chips. We know the CS chip very well, and like the performance. AKM is also well known for high performance.
But we hope to someday try the ESS. If it will outperform the CS-AKM combination, we will use the ESS. If not, we will not use the ESS.
That's the way we work. We do not choose the component on front. They must perform to enter the design.
I don't think it's a mistake, that CS and AKM are the ones used in pro-gear, while the others seem to aim at consumer gear.
Which market are you planning to address, consumer or pro market? I do think that it would be a good idea to investigate before the choice of which DAC to utilize don't you think? If consumers prefer one over the other, would that not be the smart one to utilize, if success is the expected results in the consumer market?
I've removed several personally contentious posts. Any further trashing of people (as opposed to technical criticism) will be dealt with firmly. Keep to the technical topic.
I've been following this thread for some time and have come to the opinion that so much anomosity now exists between the contributors that any further useful technical debate will be difficult.
Allowing the thread to continue in this way will do little for the credibility of the contributors and of this forum.
Normally I'm mostly into recordplayers and analogue reproduction - Life is too short for digital! ;o)
But in reply to Hurtig: For allmost 20 minutes I did sit in the sweet spot. It was when you went for pizzas. Yes, I did mention that you got a really good result with the Dali speakers driven by a truly high end front end. But that is not the same as saying, the Dali speakers are high end. They are not.
And then to set things right. It is a good DAC you made, but in the context we heard it, I would not say it is a super high-end DAC and certainly not in the same league as ex. EMM Labs, Wadia, the bigger Accuphase players and the AN DAC we tried. I find it a bit too polite and laid back. It created a big soundstage but at same time there was some distance to the musical experience. Some people may like it this way - some may not (Some like electrostatic speakers - some like horn-speakers).
Anyway it is difficult to evaluate sound in an unknown set-up and a room you are not familiar with. Your DAC may bee good - even fantastic. It is not your DAC as such I don't like. It is your attitude and the way you criticise all other products, and the way you imply that if it is not DALI speaker and the big amps you use, then it is not good. There are many ways to enjoying music - Your way may be just one of them.
Now back to the black disks - they don't need a DAC! ;o)
But in reply to Hurtig: For allmost 20 minutes I did sit in the sweet spot. It was when you went for pizzas. Yes, I did mention that you got a really good result with the Dali speakers driven by a truly high end front end. But that is not the same as saying, the Dali speakers are high end. They are not.
And then to set things right. It is a good DAC you made, but in the context we heard it, I would not say it is a super high-end DAC and certainly not in the same league as ex. EMM Labs, Wadia, the bigger Accuphase players and the AN DAC we tried. I find it a bit too polite and laid back. It created a big soundstage but at same time there was some distance to the musical experience. Some people may like it this way - some may not (Some like electrostatic speakers - some like horn-speakers).
Anyway it is difficult to evaluate sound in an unknown set-up and a room you are not familiar with. Your DAC may bee good - even fantastic. It is not your DAC as such I don't like. It is your attitude and the way you criticise all other products, and the way you imply that if it is not DALI speaker and the big amps you use, then it is not good. There are many ways to enjoying music - Your way may be just one of them.
Now back to the black disks - they don't need a DAC! ;o)
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With all the constrains that you put on everything, no one would blame them for keeping quiet!
Would any of these 10 people ever fulfill requirements enough to do a critical review of your DAC?
I'm the kind of person who is biased towards the more analytic sound and I think it's a shame the way that you are standing in the way your own child (which will never get a chance to reach it's true potential this way).
I understand that you are interested in selling some extra PCBs, but at the same time put so many constrains to the use of these boards that they will be almost impossible to buy. Why this approach? I could understand this if the design of these boards also were to be used in a commercial product (and I would probably do the same), but if you only keep a couple of boards for your own private use I really can't see the point in all these constrains. Variations on a theme is endless and maybe someone came up with something that you could use (or at least try) on your own DAC.
Let your child go, see how it does on it's own, or hide it away for use in a commercial product.
Whatever effort you put around the DAC chip, the result is limited by the chip itself and it's ingredients, as there are: a bit of delta sigma and a good portion of oversampling and who knows what else.
To me it is no wonder, the reviewer preferred the AN.
R2R non os with analog filter kicks the modern chip's a**.
Just everything is more expensive as we know...
By the way, in that schematic, do I really see a pair of electrolytic caps back to back, bypassed with a film cap ?
To me it is no wonder, the reviewer preferred the AN.
R2R non os with analog filter kicks the modern chip's a**.
Just everything is more expensive as we know...
By the way, in that schematic, do I really see a pair of electrolytic caps back to back, bypassed with a film cap ?
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Surely everybody would make the same claim, that they choose parts according to performance.
Maybe they use them because they are familiar with them, as you admit you yourself have done. Plus of course they measure well in the standard parameters - always important to pro guys.
We are going for High End Audio. What I meant with the pro business is, that I believe that the High End Pro pro business are more concerned about keeping the performance, than the High End consumer business. I do know a High End consumer manufacturer, changing the DAC chip in a CD player in production for one single reason: Price. They gained around 2 USD (I guess based on the 2 chips prices), and that was reason enough to change. The decision was made witout listening to the new DAC! Just reading the datasheet.
You definetly have a point here. And then again, you don't.
I have to admit, that one of the reasons I wanted to use the Crystal parts, is that I have been working with them for about 10 years (Since graduating with a special in digital audio). So here you are totaly right
But!...: Kurt von Kubik did NOT like the word "Crystal" when we started. He always liked Burr Brown DAC's. And in the beginning we was working on a BB based DAC, using PCM1704-K. Also the PCM1794A and others have been in the listening room. You would be amazed to see how many PCB's we threw away!! And finally we tried the CS4398, that kicked *** to all of the chips we had been using before. KvK did not like that fact in the beginning, but had to rely on his ears.
That's why we ended up with the CS4398.
Now it starts to make sense....
You say that you actually do not like digital sound at all. You also say, that it is difficult to evaluate a new DAC, in an unknown room using an unknow setup. That really really makes sense.
What does not make sense, is why you started writing that the DAC wasn't that good, when you do not believe that the conditions made it possible to evaluate
And I don't understand why you, after claiming not to be able to evaluate it, still say that it is not as good as a EMM Labs (That you happen to own), Wadia and bigger Accuphase.
Anyway... You choose the AN, and that is really OK with us. As I said before, you may have a different approach to music than we have. And that's OK. Some take the Alfa Romeo, some the BMW
)So basically we agree.... Just with a different approach
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