Had a little mini get togther today at Chris'. Scott & Don were down from up island, Jason, Chris, & i, and Bob Reimer made it from Abbotsford.
Once we figured out that these things drive the SE tube amps nuts we were fine... (i think every driver was in every box at least once). In the end we used Jason's miniAs and Chris' tweaked Jolida PP EL34 with Don's Grounded Grid pre....
A bipole based on Tim's WR125 TMM ML-TL and a Solo 103 inspired miniOnken.
Even with low hours*, these things are quite stunning. Everyone who has ever commented on the WR125 always says they are amazed by the bass... well i'll just have to say it again. These babies do the bottom. They did show some of the same tendency towards too much that we heard at the last RAW-fest, but in Chris' room (and mine now) they were much better. Out of the box measurements give a clue as to why... without break-in they exhibit a higher Qt than when broken in (at least for the WR samples -- FRs haven't been in the field long enuff yet)
*(drivers were being installed as people started arriving)
And they do everything else really well too... we'll reserve judgement on whether they can meet the sublime mids of an FE103EZ (hang in there Kofi), but even out of the gates they were no slouch.
During the sessions we listened to the WR125s by themselves in the miniOs, and comments were that people thought they could live with the depressed top, but the bipoles with FRs on one side & WRs on the other (scarcity of FRs & an experiment in keeping costs down) gave the opportunity to just rotate the cabs to compare... this made it quite clear what the FR did on the top that the WR was missing. This -- and the price differential -- give some real choices. If you want to add a tweeter (either as an ST or making a "real" 2-way) then save $50/pr and get the WRs... if you want to take the purist approach the FR does it by itself.
BTW... if it isn't clear, i am quite enthusiastic about these.... i am particularily impressed with the miniOs -- i can see a bipole floorstander version of these coming together.
dave
Once we figured out that these things drive the SE tube amps nuts we were fine... (i think every driver was in every box at least once). In the end we used Jason's miniAs and Chris' tweaked Jolida PP EL34 with Don's Grounded Grid pre....
A bipole based on Tim's WR125 TMM ML-TL and a Solo 103 inspired miniOnken.
Even with low hours*, these things are quite stunning. Everyone who has ever commented on the WR125 always says they are amazed by the bass... well i'll just have to say it again. These babies do the bottom. They did show some of the same tendency towards too much that we heard at the last RAW-fest, but in Chris' room (and mine now) they were much better. Out of the box measurements give a clue as to why... without break-in they exhibit a higher Qt than when broken in (at least for the WR samples -- FRs haven't been in the field long enuff yet)
*(drivers were being installed as people started arriving)
And they do everything else really well too... we'll reserve judgement on whether they can meet the sublime mids of an FE103EZ (hang in there Kofi), but even out of the gates they were no slouch.
During the sessions we listened to the WR125s by themselves in the miniOs, and comments were that people thought they could live with the depressed top, but the bipoles with FRs on one side & WRs on the other (scarcity of FRs & an experiment in keeping costs down) gave the opportunity to just rotate the cabs to compare... this made it quite clear what the FR did on the top that the WR was missing. This -- and the price differential -- give some real choices. If you want to add a tweeter (either as an ST or making a "real" 2-way) then save $50/pr and get the WRs... if you want to take the purist approach the FR does it by itself.
BTW... if it isn't clear, i am quite enthusiastic about these.... i am particularily impressed with the miniOs -- i can see a bipole floorstander version of these coming together.
dave
Jason's miniAs (in full UL approved format 
) and the 3 SE amps that the FRs drove into conniputions (RH34, stock Decware ZEN, and the parafeed monoblok EF86/EL84 RH inspired SEs -- that all 3 amps exhibited the same problems made the problems we initially had hard to diagnose)
) and the 3 SE amps that the FRs drove into conniputions (RH34, stock Decware ZEN, and the parafeed monoblok EF86/EL84 RH inspired SEs -- that all 3 amps exhibited the same problems made the problems we initially had hard to diagnose)Attachments
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planet10 said:Jason's miniAs (in full UL approved format
Except for the Mini a's. The speakers didn't no porblems with them.
Banned
Joined 2002
On another note at the start of the day when dae picked me up i was talking about a pair of speakers id like to build with 4 drivers 2 x 7" a 5" and a tweeter bragging about this is wha ti want not something some one esle has designed and had.
Lets just say at the end of the day dave laughed at me and said well there goes your complex driver's / Boxes. I agreed and said i would rather have the floor standing towers.
Lets just say at the end of the day dave laughed at me and said well there goes your complex driver's / Boxes. I agreed and said i would rather have the floor standing towers.
morbo said:
No idea about the D-Box (except that is is pricey). Once we nail these i'll publish the plans on my web-site. So far things are looking good. Just ran impedance... based on that they should have F3 in the 55 Hz neighborhood, and hopefully the resistive nature of the ports will give a less drastic roll-off than a typical BR.
dave
Ccs Fr125
I had a chance to listen for a few more hours last night & this morning, and they're sounding better by the hour.
I can't wait to give 'em 200-300 break-in, and compare to FE127E bipoles, but my bias to SE amps might get in the way.
For the benefit of readers, the short story is that in both enclosures, (the Onken inspired and Tim's bipole MLTL) 3 different SET tubed amps ( Decware Zen Select, and 2 experimental homebuilts) sounded absolutely broken with the WR & FR drivers. The absolutely worst case of amplifier imcompatibility I've heard in over 35yrs, and quite disheartening with Bob sitting in the room.
Fortunately, someone finally suggested we switch to a differnent amp topology.
With the Pass Mini-A (ask Jason for model details) or relatively stock Jolida 302 (EL34 PP triode strapped) no problems at all. Excellent bass extension and articulation on the SS, but rather dry/thin midrange and collapsed soundstage compared to the tubed amp.
Tim: excellent design work on both the FE127E & CCS enclosures - hopefully we'll still have some running for your next visit.
Don, thanks for the listen to the GG - very nice pre-amp, even if a very "engineer" execution, and best of luck with the Buschorns - no doubt there's tons of advice available re tweaking the public design. Just remember in this hobby as in life, there is no single "right" way to do anything, and even experts and engineers have been known to change their thinking.
"Perfect music, forever"?
I had a chance to listen for a few more hours last night & this morning, and they're sounding better by the hour.
I can't wait to give 'em 200-300 break-in, and compare to FE127E bipoles, but my bias to SE amps might get in the way.
For the benefit of readers, the short story is that in both enclosures, (the Onken inspired and Tim's bipole MLTL) 3 different SET tubed amps ( Decware Zen Select, and 2 experimental homebuilts) sounded absolutely broken with the WR & FR drivers. The absolutely worst case of amplifier imcompatibility I've heard in over 35yrs, and quite disheartening with Bob sitting in the room.
Fortunately, someone finally suggested we switch to a differnent amp topology.
With the Pass Mini-A (ask Jason for model details) or relatively stock Jolida 302 (EL34 PP triode strapped) no problems at all. Excellent bass extension and articulation on the SS, but rather dry/thin midrange and collapsed soundstage compared to the tubed amp.
Tim: excellent design work on both the FE127E & CCS enclosures - hopefully we'll still have some running for your next visit.
Don, thanks for the listen to the GG - very nice pre-amp, even if a very "engineer" execution, and best of luck with the Buschorns - no doubt there's tons of advice available re tweaking the public design. Just remember in this hobby as in life, there is no single "right" way to do anything, and even experts and engineers have been known to change their thinking.
"Perfect music, forever"?
Banned
Joined 2002
Re: Ccs Fr125
So, what's the deal with amp/driver incompatibilty? Is it the (assuming parallel wiring of drivers) 4 ohm load that is the problem? How would they do with a mass market solid state ie '90's Yamaha or '70's Kenwood? How about a Gainclone?
Max
chrisb said:For the benefit of readers, the short story is that in both enclosures, (the Onken inspired and Tim's bipole MLTL) 3 different SET tubed amps ( Decware Zen Select, and 2 experimental homebuilts) sounded absolutely broken with the WR & FR drivers. The absolutely worst case of amplifier imcompatibility I've heard in over 35yrs, and quite disheartening with Bob sitting in the room.
Fortunately, someone finally suggested we switch to a differnent amp topology.
With the Pass Mini-A (ask Jason for model details) or relatively stock Jolida 302 (EL34 PP triode strapped) no problems at all. Excellent bass extension and articulation on the SS, but rather dry/thin midrange and collapsed soundstage compared to the tubed amp.
[/B]
So, what's the deal with amp/driver incompatibilty? Is it the (assuming parallel wiring of drivers) 4 ohm load that is the problem? How would they do with a mass market solid state ie '90's Yamaha or '70's Kenwood? How about a Gainclone?
Max
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