I like some things that tomchr said about subjectivity. It reminded me of a job I once had at a auto aftermarket workshop making "car carpets." Try saying that fast! Customers would call trying to order a particular colour "car carpet". From memory there were less than a dozen different colours and what futile exercise it was. Expand that to particular sounds of capacitors.....and....you get the point? I would imagine that there would be a lot more that a dozen types of sounds of capacitors.
Me, being technically ignorant, I do rely on subjectivity of mods, designs,...etc and I do take tomchr's idea of investing in some measurable equipment. I know I need to learn more about this hobby, that we all enjoy.
Cheers,
Nigel
Me, being technically ignorant, I do rely on subjectivity of mods, designs,...etc and I do take tomchr's idea of investing in some measurable equipment. I know I need to learn more about this hobby, that we all enjoy.
Cheers,
Nigel
Speaking of carpet,
I know someone that always covers their speakers in carpet, he says it sounds better.
Off topic comment.
Years ago, audiophiles would mount all caps on black/blue tack.
They believed caps were microphonic.
I can say that in radio circuits you could tap a ceramic cap and hear it through the speaker. (The gain was high)
Regards
M. Gregg
I know someone that always covers their speakers in carpet, he says it sounds better.
Off topic comment.
Years ago, audiophiles would mount all caps on black/blue tack.
They believed caps were microphonic.
I can say that in radio circuits you could tap a ceramic cap and hear it through the speaker. (The gain was high)
Regards
M. Gregg
I hate to even wade into this, but some various thoughts and experiences with capacitors.
Way back in 1990, when I was younger and just starting with tubes, I had a Scott integrated with .1uF ceramic coupling caps. I swapped them out for Wondercaps. I noticed that the amplifier sounded louder at the same volume settings. Of course I couldn't AB the results, but I was quite familiar with the few CDs I had at the time and noticed that the volume know was pointing lower than before for the same listening levels. Very strange and something I've never ran across since.
A few years ago I built a single-ended EL156 amplifier (EF86 driver, UL output). Swapping the generic polypropolene that I used for testing for Russian Teflons, the sound become better right from the get go. However, the more I listened (and the more the amp broke in), the less I heard the "effect of the cap". Perhaps the mind is consciously looking for a difference and heightening the small (if any) changes.
Another unit - a factory built Bottlehead that I bought, actually sounded better to my ears with the original Orange Drop 716s instead of the expensive audiophile oil caps I later installed.
Back in the past, I used to be "cap crazy", spending big $$$ on coupling and power supply caps. I've since tempered that, using fairly standard Nichicons, Elnas, and Panasonic for power supply use. I actually prefer them over Solens. For signal caps, I generally use Wimas for PCB use (tight packaging), Cornell-Dubilier for P2P, and maybe Obbligatos.
My personal amplifiers - rebuilt and modified Eico HF-60s, however, got MIT RTXs and Jantzens - do they make a difference? Can't say since I never swapped anything out of them, but I was trying to make the amps good enough so I wouldn't be hacking into them every week.
Short version: I think capacitors matter, but the circuit itself is more important.
Way back in 1990, when I was younger and just starting with tubes, I had a Scott integrated with .1uF ceramic coupling caps. I swapped them out for Wondercaps. I noticed that the amplifier sounded louder at the same volume settings. Of course I couldn't AB the results, but I was quite familiar with the few CDs I had at the time and noticed that the volume know was pointing lower than before for the same listening levels. Very strange and something I've never ran across since.
A few years ago I built a single-ended EL156 amplifier (EF86 driver, UL output). Swapping the generic polypropolene that I used for testing for Russian Teflons, the sound become better right from the get go. However, the more I listened (and the more the amp broke in), the less I heard the "effect of the cap". Perhaps the mind is consciously looking for a difference and heightening the small (if any) changes.
Another unit - a factory built Bottlehead that I bought, actually sounded better to my ears with the original Orange Drop 716s instead of the expensive audiophile oil caps I later installed.
Back in the past, I used to be "cap crazy", spending big $$$ on coupling and power supply caps. I've since tempered that, using fairly standard Nichicons, Elnas, and Panasonic for power supply use. I actually prefer them over Solens. For signal caps, I generally use Wimas for PCB use (tight packaging), Cornell-Dubilier for P2P, and maybe Obbligatos.
My personal amplifiers - rebuilt and modified Eico HF-60s, however, got MIT RTXs and Jantzens - do they make a difference? Can't say since I never swapped anything out of them, but I was trying to make the amps good enough so I wouldn't be hacking into them every week.
Short version: I think capacitors matter, but the circuit itself is more important.
The guy used grey carpet, he was a sound guy and amp tech. He said it stopped the speaker cab colouring the sound. Not saying it did or didn't, however his system sounded very good. The carpet was a professional fit like in a car.
Some of his fold back speakers were also covered in carpet for Stage use.
Yes the caps had black/blue tack between them and the circuit board and a tie around them.
Regards
M. Gregg
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True on that, circuit design, tried and tested is #1. Coupling caps are just part of that. That said, I'm a cheap bastid and think the 716P caps sound pretty good. I use them and have swapped the orange drops for Russian PIO K40y-9 and like them as much or more but it's pretty hard to tell due to break in on the Russian caps. If I want to get spendy I'll use the FT-3 Russian caps @$5/cap. I wish I had a nickle for every article I read about capacitor this and that, including threads here and elsewhere. If I'm going to build the best amp I can afford I'm not putting money into coupling caps but rather iron, so after that I don't have the money for exotic caps, just plain common sense. There's a point of diminished return on funds vs quality of sound if you lump all the parts together prior to building. I just cant see spending a bunch of money on 1 or 2 parts unless its IRON. That I obsess on much more since it's a good portion of my budget for an amp.
716P
K40y-9
FT-3 (if size matters ??) then these win hands down
Those there are going to get you where you want to be. I daily drive all of them.
Cheers,
Bob
I agree.
In my experience, any circuit that has global feedback (most typical EL34 PP amps are) and any coupling cap inside the fb loop is not that noticeable in sound if at all. With non-feedback circuits, the cap's effect on the sound is more noticeable and the more expensive cap's sound is not necessarily an improvement. But very often, that's usually an unstable circuit. I think optimizing the circuit is more important than swapping caps. Fancy "audiophile" caps can be a waste of time and money. The subjective discussion about cap sound is nauseating to me.
I find it interesting that I'm suddenly labeled "egoistic" because I suggest that we go measure stuff. Whatever...
Bingo! Given the amount of data our perception system processes, it really does a remarkable job. But it is easily fooled. Most of us are probably familiar with optical illusions. Just keep in mind that these types of illusions exist in the other senses as well.
We could extend the discussion to cover our decision making processes. That's not rational either - especially when it comes to difficult decisions.
Then there's stuff like placebo effect, confirmation bias, belief bias, etc.
~Tom
parts xpress has some audyn polyprop metalized 400v for $1 each Audyn Cap Q4 0.47uF 400V MKP Foil Capacitor 027-104
This is a very good place to start cheap polyprop . Go for there.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=027-104
This is a very good place to start cheap polyprop . Go for there.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=027-104
I do apologise incorrectly labeling your person. I still believe in audiophile cRaps. I use to be like you. No ..no and no! I don't want those expensive caps. Recently i built for a friend a hiraga prepre. Basic PSU caps, basic signal caps. Sounds fantastic the prepre, actualy this was an eye opener for my friend. Then, i built another prepre. Fully mundorf psu and signal caps. He didn't knew what caps are inside when we compared the two units. His word was WOW! I guess you guess which one was the better sounding.
Regards,
Janos
The psu were electrolythic, bypassed with mcp poly, and mcap evo aluminium. The signal caps were mcap evo aluminium.
Regards,
Janos
I'm always intrigued by folks making the claim that people will hear what they want to hear. I know of numerous occasions where I've been in an environment where I've been expecting a big improvement (due to boutique parts, or high end components, or perceived value, or reviews) where I've been decidedly underwhelmed and dissatisfied, and conversely numerous occasions where I've been expecting things to sounds pretty unimpressive and been flawed by the quality of reproduction.
Seems to me that if I'm hearing a change, it's due to what I'm hearing, not what I'm expecting.
Seems to me that if I'm hearing a change, it's due to what I'm hearing, not what I'm expecting.
Sometimes that's true. Sometimes that's not true. A wise man trusts his ears and distrusts his brain.
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