Locking people up and burning books for silly ideas is what fascists do. Smiling at the people and sending the magazines for paper recycling is what engineers do.HornTube said:
Fortunately equipment does not have to be expensive these days. Nobody is talking about replacing the human ear, apart from those who feel it necessary to augment it with their eyes. Do thousands of people hear the same attributes? Even if they do, unproven in my estimation, it is far more likely that what they are hearing is distortion, microphonics etc.
Someone who argues at that level is not to be taken seriously. ECC81 is particularly good at low level signals. It is at higher levels that its distortion might become a problem.
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The Godwin was rather amusing.
Re: ECC81, it depends on what you mean by "low level signals." At 10V out in a well-designed voltage amplifier, distortion was quite low, which is why it found service in my little EL84 amp as the input tube. I haven't run it at higher swings than that, but it seemed to perform well in the neo-Williamson topology used in David Bernings excellent EA-230 amp, where it was used for the rather large voltages required for screen drive.
The problem with people like you is:
You never have build a preamp with an ECC81 and listened to it in comparison to another tube preamp. All your talk is based on theory. Example: A 6SN7 with 30% wrong operation point and cheap parts will do sound overwhelmingly better than an ECC81 with correct operation point and high grade parts. I'm not theorizing - I've been there...
"unproven in my estimation..." that says it all - you estimate - other people try it out.
Audible differences in capacitors
I used to obsess about this coupling cap vs. that coupling cap. It was a complete waste of time and effort, not to mention money.
I do believe I can hear an infinitesimal difference when I replace a metallized polypropylene film cap with the same value polypropylene film-and-foil cap. The film-foil type typically sounds a bit smoother. I believe the best explanation for this that I've found is in Morgan Jones' Valve Amplifiers (3rd and 4th Eds). I don't have access to that now, but the gist is that like metal film resistors, metallized film resistors have a sputtered (rough textured) conductive layer on the plastic film, which has varying depth of conductive surface area. This can cause a type of self-noise that may be audible when current flows through the cap. (I hope I got that right. Please correct me if I'm off.)
I saw some tests (maybe S. Bench?) that showed 'scope traces of resonant qualities of coupling caps, with conclusion that PIO were better damped. Maybe that's the oil in those things. That would mean that polypro film-foil in oil would be the best of the best (in reasonably high values at moderate size), no?
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I used to obsess about this coupling cap vs. that coupling cap. It was a complete waste of time and effort, not to mention money.
I do believe I can hear an infinitesimal difference when I replace a metallized polypropylene film cap with the same value polypropylene film-and-foil cap. The film-foil type typically sounds a bit smoother. I believe the best explanation for this that I've found is in Morgan Jones' Valve Amplifiers (3rd and 4th Eds). I don't have access to that now, but the gist is that like metal film resistors, metallized film resistors have a sputtered (rough textured) conductive layer on the plastic film, which has varying depth of conductive surface area. This can cause a type of self-noise that may be audible when current flows through the cap. (I hope I got that right. Please correct me if I'm off.)
I saw some tests (maybe S. Bench?) that showed 'scope traces of resonant qualities of coupling caps, with conclusion that PIO were better damped. Maybe that's the oil in those things. That would mean that polypro film-foil in oil would be the best of the best (in reasonably high values at moderate size), no?
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Distortion is quantifiable. You can agree on a set of test conditions, execute the experiment, and compare the results. You can also correlate distortion with the subjective listening experience and get closer to a measurable quantity that's indicative of sound quality. This is called science.
The subjectivist superlatives used in audio are not quantifiable - or even repeatable. It doesn't take much forum reading to figure out that people will often describe the same experience in completely different (sometimes opposite) terms. What does "dry bass" mean? Or "smooth mids" and "sparkly highs". And how much change has occurred when "a veil has been lifted". If you get twice the change, is that then two veils? Or is it a logarithmic scale? Is there a reference veil we should use and measure dBv (dBveil)?
Another issue in subjective comparisons is that most of them are done by DIY Joe and his friends. They just blew $200 on fancy caps and want to try them out. Of course they'll hear a difference. First off, they give their ears a break when the solder the new components in. Secondly, $200 caps aught to sound better. So they're perceived as better sounding. In science, we call this confirmation bias.
My basic point is that we all have access to excellent measurement gear. A decent USB sound card and a calibrated measurement microphone will set you back $150. With these tools we can perform end-to-end measurements and quantify any changes we've made. But few people seem to actually bother. They'd rather count veils.
But each to their own, I guess. The purpose of a hobby is to take up your time, money and provide some enjoyment, right.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
~Tom
Interesting! That's exactly where I hear the biggest differences, in 'passive' speaker crossovers. Too bad it's so expensive to make polypro film-foil caps in high enough values.
There's a brand named Axon that offers that kind of thing. They're expensive, though. 3.3uF 100V is nearly $10 here: caps
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Just an opinion,
Audio caps will not make a bad circuit sound good!
Quite the opposite, it will make it sound worse.
PIO caps need careful placement. The problem is they can seem to act as a filter.
The problem seems to be standard caps can sound quite good, BUT have people tried the quite cheap Obbligato gold or hovland supercaps. Then comment after listening. Good bad or indifferent have they listened? the problem is most people head straight for PIO and I don't think its the way to go!
Of course this is all meaningless, Audio caps are way to big, rubbish they are if you don't take a look at the smaller ones. And yes LCR audio caps are not good! so are the PIO in the wrong circuit. But where are the measurements we won't listen unless you can have measurements. Just for fun don't try that drink you haven't got a measurement so say you will like it!
Making the wrong choice in audio cap is easy just buy the best! put it in and regret at leisure.
I don't like audio note caps, or Jensen, but there the best. are they? (Some think they are great)
NB I don't think putting audio caps right through a circuit is a good idea, sometimes its over kill.
Explain Over kill, put audio caps right through a circuit and then plug in your source (an ipod).
Input cap or coupling cap once or max twice, to the OP tubes standard is OK. (is it) depends how good the rest of the system is! some smear is nice to have.
Just opinion so ignore it..
Regards
M. Gregg
Audio caps will not make a bad circuit sound good!
Quite the opposite, it will make it sound worse.
PIO caps need careful placement. The problem is they can seem to act as a filter.
The problem seems to be standard caps can sound quite good, BUT have people tried the quite cheap Obbligato gold or hovland supercaps. Then comment after listening. Good bad or indifferent have they listened? the problem is most people head straight for PIO and I don't think its the way to go!
Of course this is all meaningless, Audio caps are way to big, rubbish they are if you don't take a look at the smaller ones. And yes LCR audio caps are not good! so are the PIO in the wrong circuit. But where are the measurements we won't listen unless you can have measurements. Just for fun don't try that drink you haven't got a measurement so say you will like it!
Making the wrong choice in audio cap is easy just buy the best! put it in and regret at leisure.
I don't like audio note caps, or Jensen, but there the best. are they? (Some think they are great)
NB I don't think putting audio caps right through a circuit is a good idea, sometimes its over kill.
Explain Over kill, put audio caps right through a circuit and then plug in your source (an ipod).
Input cap or coupling cap once or max twice, to the OP tubes standard is OK. (is it) depends how good the rest of the system is! some smear is nice to have.
Just opinion so ignore it..
Regards
M. Gregg
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I've tested a basic Solen MKP vs a few other "high end" caps in my Aikido and there is a huge difference.
I've heard huge differences in others' speaker xovers too.
Most people that make claims have not actually experimented because they think their theories must be correct. I'm sorry but this is bad science and poor engineering.
I've heard huge differences in others' speaker xovers too.
Most people that make claims have not actually experimented because they think their theories must be correct. I'm sorry but this is bad science and poor engineering.
I have never met any of those people, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.
I certainly have met people who do a badly controlled (or even more often, totally uncontrolled) experiment, draw sweeping conclusions from the invalid results, then haughtily proclaim that anyone who disagrees is deaf or inexperienced.
What I would say is,
If the type of cap doesn't make a difference I agree it doesn't.
So I can put what I like in and it doesn't matter.
Problem is I tried this, and said orange drop right through. Took out my audio caps and said nothing.
My son said whats wrong with the amp all the bass has gone?
I said your imagining it. He stopped using it.
I sat and listened to it, and said I'm not putting them back. I'm imagining it.
I did that for a month, I stopped listening to it.
So I put them back in, its in constant use now and I can't get to listen.
I still think its all imagination.
Regards
M. Gregg
If the type of cap doesn't make a difference I agree it doesn't.
So I can put what I like in and it doesn't matter.
Problem is I tried this, and said orange drop right through. Took out my audio caps and said nothing.
My son said whats wrong with the amp all the bass has gone?
I said your imagining it. He stopped using it.
I sat and listened to it, and said I'm not putting them back. I'm imagining it.
I did that for a month, I stopped listening to it.
So I put them back in, its in constant use now and I can't get to listen.
I still think its all imagination.
Regards
M. Gregg
I like this tread. It developed into a war between believers, and egoistic non believers. My ears don't lie! Capacitors can sound different. Resistors can sound different! Wire???... I don't know. Maybe... Multistrand wire smear the sound, solid gauge makes the sound more focused, sharp... God knows how to describe it
I honestly believe I can hear clear differences between some different coupling caps, but then I've never demonstrated this to myself or others in a formal test scenario.
I like a lot of the Russian caps. KBG & K40 paper in oil, KSG/SSG silver mica (where low values are ok), polystyrene and Teflon are all worth a listen. I've pretty much settled on KBG for 2-10uF and polystyrene/Teflon for lower values.
I'm sure there is a psychological element to my preferences, but that doesn't really bother me. I like what I hear.
I like a lot of the Russian caps. KBG & K40 paper in oil, KSG/SSG silver mica (where low values are ok), polystyrene and Teflon are all worth a listen. I've pretty much settled on KBG for 2-10uF and polystyrene/Teflon for lower values.
I'm sure there is a psychological element to my preferences, but that doesn't really bother me. I like what I hear.
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