Chris your haunting me. I only ever had one really good tech and he had some character problems.We had to keep an eye on him. No one else could keep up to me. I think, looking back at it all, maybe my expectations of techs were too high. I could never seem to find any good ones.
I paid all of them by piece work, fifty percent of the labor charge, so it didn't take long for the ones who couldn't keep up to wash out. They simply couldn't make enough to live on. It was also difficult to maintain the quality of the work and there were a lot of returns. It ended up with just me doing all the repairs until I burned out.
David.
I paid all of them by piece work, fifty percent of the labor charge, so it didn't take long for the ones who couldn't keep up to wash out. They simply couldn't make enough to live on. It was also difficult to maintain the quality of the work and there were a lot of returns. It ended up with just me doing all the repairs until I burned out.
David.
At the risk of diving into politics, I think the reason consumers don't value service is the globalization of labor. It takes a lot of cheap labor to make a $199 a/v receiver: cheap labor to assemble it, cheap labor to manufacture all of its components, cheap labor to provide design, documentation and packaging. Unless the service tech is willing to work at those same rates, his time will quickly exceed the "value" of the equipment under service.
You can't blame people for not wanting to put $200 of service into a $200 receiver, that's simple and reasonable logic. The problem is the logic of the global market that makes it possible to have a $200 receiver in the first place.
Maybe, just maybe, the pendulum will eventually swing back in the other directions, as consumers tire of paying for products that fail rapidly and perform poorly. I see some small signs this might be happening. (People here in Portland seem willing to pay a premium for hand-made beer and bicycles!)
The existence of this forum is another sign that there are people who care about skilled labor, careful design and quality work.
You can't blame people for not wanting to put $200 of service into a $200 receiver, that's simple and reasonable logic. The problem is the logic of the global market that makes it possible to have a $200 receiver in the first place.
Maybe, just maybe, the pendulum will eventually swing back in the other directions, as consumers tire of paying for products that fail rapidly and perform poorly. I see some small signs this might be happening. (People here in Portland seem willing to pay a premium for hand-made beer and bicycles!)
The existence of this forum is another sign that there are people who care about skilled labor, careful design and quality work.
Wow, bad news all around. Well, I liken it to the whole McRib thing. Better than a rib, but cheaper! MMMMM...thanks McDonalds! MMMM..and their spicy mustard sauce for their McNuggets. To die for! It's neither mustard nor spicy!!!!
We somehow decided along the way that if we could get the same thing, but cheaper, that we are better off. Well, we're not getting something that is better. But you know what, are kids are getting conditioned to think that since it is newer and more advanced, it HAS to be better. MP3s are the best thing going. Wow, Dad, I can get 2000 songs on this! Woohoo! And they all sound great!!! Dios mio!!!
I was in college and like all college kids, wanted a killer sound system. I saved up and with $1000 in hand, bought a JVC rack system. A complete system for $1k. Big 3 way speakers. It had everything. Why, I would be able to eventually connect one of those CD players up some day through the AUX connection. Well, 3 months later, I noticed the turntable headshell was not parallel to the record surface. My record collection was getting gouged. 8 months later, the cassette deck stopped working completely. What a piece of garbage!!!
A few years later, I get a postcard to subscribe to Stereophile, and here I am. I for one am optimistic and promise to bring up my two little ones to put adequate emphasis on quality. One reason for change is that we are filling up our landfills with this cheap junk like my JVC super system! I have equipment going on 20 years old now that still works fine. If our kids are so concerned about being green, then this forum is a good start right here!
We somehow decided along the way that if we could get the same thing, but cheaper, that we are better off. Well, we're not getting something that is better. But you know what, are kids are getting conditioned to think that since it is newer and more advanced, it HAS to be better. MP3s are the best thing going. Wow, Dad, I can get 2000 songs on this! Woohoo! And they all sound great!!! Dios mio!!!
I was in college and like all college kids, wanted a killer sound system. I saved up and with $1000 in hand, bought a JVC rack system. A complete system for $1k. Big 3 way speakers. It had everything. Why, I would be able to eventually connect one of those CD players up some day through the AUX connection. Well, 3 months later, I noticed the turntable headshell was not parallel to the record surface. My record collection was getting gouged. 8 months later, the cassette deck stopped working completely. What a piece of garbage!!!
A few years later, I get a postcard to subscribe to Stereophile, and here I am. I for one am optimistic and promise to bring up my two little ones to put adequate emphasis on quality. One reason for change is that we are filling up our landfills with this cheap junk like my JVC super system! I have equipment going on 20 years old now that still works fine. If our kids are so concerned about being green, then this forum is a good start right here!
Hi Dave,
What can I say?
Actually, I had exactly three excellent technicians over the years. One at a time, and all left for industrial jobs. I am (or was) on good terms with all of them even after they left. On (Dan) has been an excellent friend over the years and eventually got me my first job in telecom. I should have listened to him a decade before.
Most of the other techs did a good, competent job and needed some help now and then. That's fine and perfectly reasonable. They were all good guys and I was happy to have them. Through some experimentation with labour rates, I found I couldn't afford to pay them more than 1/3 the labour rate, or $20 / Hr. Not a bad wage, and the Canadian average wage rests between $18 and $20 per Hr. (gov figures). Those wage surveys you see in magazines? Fantasy. Some people make more or the same, but not most. On warranty work, I was forced to give them 1/2 the labour rate or they wouldn't touch the stuff. Of course, like you I had to deal with all the messes and tough jobs. That and all the customers you had the idea that a business owner was rich of something. Collecting for work done was another activity, and I was estatic when debit came out. No more figgin cheques except for company cheques. I worked 12 ~ 18 hour days usually and often 7 days a week. I burned out but it took 16 years for that to happen.
At least quality was never a concern for us. I also found you had to pay piecework in order to get any work out of the guys. I did pay them a base to cover answering phones now and then, customers (they called estimates direct) and paperwork. This made everything work much more smoothly. Separate offices plus the office work gave them a sense of being respected and worthwhile. If you can do that, you will have motivated your people. It was a good ride (enjoyable) until the market wouldn't support the business. The last time it was worthwhile financially was in the later 80's. It was a lost cause from then on forward.
-Chris
What can I say?
Actually, I had exactly three excellent technicians over the years. One at a time, and all left for industrial jobs. I am (or was) on good terms with all of them even after they left. On (Dan) has been an excellent friend over the years and eventually got me my first job in telecom. I should have listened to him a decade before.
Most of the other techs did a good, competent job and needed some help now and then. That's fine and perfectly reasonable. They were all good guys and I was happy to have them. Through some experimentation with labour rates, I found I couldn't afford to pay them more than 1/3 the labour rate, or $20 / Hr. Not a bad wage, and the Canadian average wage rests between $18 and $20 per Hr. (gov figures). Those wage surveys you see in magazines? Fantasy. Some people make more or the same, but not most. On warranty work, I was forced to give them 1/2 the labour rate or they wouldn't touch the stuff. Of course, like you I had to deal with all the messes and tough jobs. That and all the customers you had the idea that a business owner was rich of something. Collecting for work done was another activity, and I was estatic when debit came out. No more figgin cheques except for company cheques. I worked 12 ~ 18 hour days usually and often 7 days a week. I burned out but it took 16 years for that to happen.
At least quality was never a concern for us. I also found you had to pay piecework in order to get any work out of the guys. I did pay them a base to cover answering phones now and then, customers (they called estimates direct) and paperwork. This made everything work much more smoothly. Separate offices plus the office work gave them a sense of being respected and worthwhile. If you can do that, you will have motivated your people. It was a good ride (enjoyable) until the market wouldn't support the business. The last time it was worthwhile financially was in the later 80's. It was a lost cause from then on forward.
-Chris
Hi Fred,
A different outlook.
I also sold audio for a bit. Unless you could demonstrate a audible advantage, customers would buy Pioneer as it was advertised the most. The build quality was not as good as the comparable sets. I sold a lot of Marantz simply because I could A/B the units (competition was Technics, Pioneer, Sony and Toshiba) and show the better sound quality. Sears started carrying Marantz and my sales dropped. Customers were getting information from our store and buying at Sears. I actually got to telling people that bought there to go fly a kite if they needed help. "But they don't know anything" was the most common response, so I replied that our knowledge and assistance was obviously not worth anything to them as they bought elsewhere for less than $50 difference. We actually got a call from the Marantz sales manager, upset because we were not assisting their customers! It was explained that we helped our customers, but the Sears customers should rely on Sears for assistance. We even had some that wanted us to handle exchanges and warranty issues for Sears products!
Your average human isn't nearly as nice, fair or friendly as you might want to think when money is involved Fred. They often become cheap, scheming liars attempting to save some $$. Even if you explain the options and they choose the less expensive one, they'll cry long and loud when what you warned them about happens. Nope, I learned that there are two kinds of people out there. Honest ones, and people out for themselves at all costs. I suspect that anyone who deals with the public in providing a service will agree. I even had to explain the difference between warranty and insurance often enough to write a form letter on the subject.
At the shop were I controlled all aspects of customer service, we had a policy. If someone comes in and is honest with us, they get a break. That's all we want, honesty. If someone comes in with fables, stories or downright lies, they get a different treatment. They are charged something I call as-hole tax. We charge them extra, because they will involve extra time and effort to simply complete a transaction. I've never been wrong on that. If you talk to garages and home service companies, you will see they do the same thing, but called differently. That's if they are being honest that is. We got nicked a couple times over the years by people who looked honest, but nothing near what it would have been like.
One clear warning sign that tells you a scam is afoot. A job that has to be done immediately on a rush, and cost is no object. Of course cost is no object! They don't intend to pay you! Never chase the big deal or large $$, because that is when you get taken. Greed is your worst enemy, con people count on it. I'm lucky to have never been actually burned with this, only because of last minute saves. Service people try to help others as a natural instinct, so they like to save the day in an emergency. That's the other way these con artists snare you.
Wow, a long speech. Sorry.
Another point Fred. People do not think too much when making these choices. They buy cheap, but assume they are getting the same quality (head in sand?). They demand performance, but almost never check the performance they are getting. They also don't care that by buying out of country they are putting their neighbors out of work. Manufacturers don't like to work hard either. So when the industry saw the trend, they merrily supplied what the market desired. After all, many companies lost market share to cheaper, lower quality products. To survive they had to join suit.
There is another side effect to this. To service product means you have to stock parts, print manuals and train technical staff, both internal and external. That costs money - lot's of money. So when prices began to drop, distributors actually subsidized the labour costs. That meant you could get a product fixed the the distributor for less than a normal shop. Labour rates are forced down too. This all because dealers and customers couldn't put two and two together to be able to understand that labour rates can not go down unless everything else does too. (my rent always went up, never down for example) On top of this, to save on manufacturing costs, the construction changed to make products much more difficult to get open in order to repair it. Who pays for this? The customer, or the poor service guy when he tries to be nice. It got so bad that the distributors outsourced their repair services. Why did this happen? Well, because they could not afford to repair equipment at the labour rates that they themselves had established, so they outsourced to local shops. About the same time, service seminars stopped and parts were no longer stocked. Some distributors would blame the service shop for delays, saying they had the parts but they weren't ordered (gimme a break!). At the end, service manuals began to be billed to the shops, some would allow us to charge it back on the first repair. Model life got so short that manuals lagged product by 6 months (really) and the unit was discontinued before it became mature (before the bugs were worked out).
It was at this point I decided to exit the industry. The audio industry does not deserve any good technicians or shops any more. Those customers - everyone here - also no longer deserve any form of competent service or service organizations. Sorry, but it's true. Everyone voted that service of any kind has no value to them. That is until they need help, but then the cost is "highway robbery". The end result is that repairable equipment continues to be discarded with no way to stem the flow. Why is it cheaper to ship stuff across an ocean to market? That's wrong, those costs are borne by all of us in some hidden way. The last resort was the (totally stunned) decision to forbid certain materials to be used in (now) disposable products. Remember, this stuff was at one point in time considered "durable products". So now we all have another failure mechanism built into the junk we buy, while medical, telecom, industrial and military products are exempt. In other words, in any product that needs to be dependable, lead based solder and other materials are allowed. From the complete lack of comment in the media, I have to assume "the public" hasn't clued into this new rip-off.
BTW, servicing lead-free products requires different solder, and because the temperatures are higher, more frequent replacement of soldering equipment as well as fewer re-soldering attempts on products (due to higher temperatures). Lead-free solder doesn't wet as well and is not as reliable over time. Wave soldering lead-free solder is an activity I really don't want to think about. Normal wave soldered products have enough problems.
-Chris
A different outlook.
I also sold audio for a bit. Unless you could demonstrate a audible advantage, customers would buy Pioneer as it was advertised the most. The build quality was not as good as the comparable sets. I sold a lot of Marantz simply because I could A/B the units (competition was Technics, Pioneer, Sony and Toshiba) and show the better sound quality. Sears started carrying Marantz and my sales dropped. Customers were getting information from our store and buying at Sears. I actually got to telling people that bought there to go fly a kite if they needed help. "But they don't know anything" was the most common response, so I replied that our knowledge and assistance was obviously not worth anything to them as they bought elsewhere for less than $50 difference. We actually got a call from the Marantz sales manager, upset because we were not assisting their customers! It was explained that we helped our customers, but the Sears customers should rely on Sears for assistance. We even had some that wanted us to handle exchanges and warranty issues for Sears products!
Your average human isn't nearly as nice, fair or friendly as you might want to think when money is involved Fred. They often become cheap, scheming liars attempting to save some $$. Even if you explain the options and they choose the less expensive one, they'll cry long and loud when what you warned them about happens. Nope, I learned that there are two kinds of people out there. Honest ones, and people out for themselves at all costs. I suspect that anyone who deals with the public in providing a service will agree. I even had to explain the difference between warranty and insurance often enough to write a form letter on the subject.
At the shop were I controlled all aspects of customer service, we had a policy. If someone comes in and is honest with us, they get a break. That's all we want, honesty. If someone comes in with fables, stories or downright lies, they get a different treatment. They are charged something I call as-hole tax. We charge them extra, because they will involve extra time and effort to simply complete a transaction. I've never been wrong on that. If you talk to garages and home service companies, you will see they do the same thing, but called differently. That's if they are being honest that is. We got nicked a couple times over the years by people who looked honest, but nothing near what it would have been like.
One clear warning sign that tells you a scam is afoot. A job that has to be done immediately on a rush, and cost is no object. Of course cost is no object! They don't intend to pay you! Never chase the big deal or large $$, because that is when you get taken. Greed is your worst enemy, con people count on it. I'm lucky to have never been actually burned with this, only because of last minute saves. Service people try to help others as a natural instinct, so they like to save the day in an emergency. That's the other way these con artists snare you.
Wow, a long speech. Sorry.
Another point Fred. People do not think too much when making these choices. They buy cheap, but assume they are getting the same quality (head in sand?). They demand performance, but almost never check the performance they are getting. They also don't care that by buying out of country they are putting their neighbors out of work. Manufacturers don't like to work hard either. So when the industry saw the trend, they merrily supplied what the market desired. After all, many companies lost market share to cheaper, lower quality products. To survive they had to join suit.
There is another side effect to this. To service product means you have to stock parts, print manuals and train technical staff, both internal and external. That costs money - lot's of money. So when prices began to drop, distributors actually subsidized the labour costs. That meant you could get a product fixed the the distributor for less than a normal shop. Labour rates are forced down too. This all because dealers and customers couldn't put two and two together to be able to understand that labour rates can not go down unless everything else does too. (my rent always went up, never down for example) On top of this, to save on manufacturing costs, the construction changed to make products much more difficult to get open in order to repair it. Who pays for this? The customer, or the poor service guy when he tries to be nice. It got so bad that the distributors outsourced their repair services. Why did this happen? Well, because they could not afford to repair equipment at the labour rates that they themselves had established, so they outsourced to local shops. About the same time, service seminars stopped and parts were no longer stocked. Some distributors would blame the service shop for delays, saying they had the parts but they weren't ordered (gimme a break!). At the end, service manuals began to be billed to the shops, some would allow us to charge it back on the first repair. Model life got so short that manuals lagged product by 6 months (really) and the unit was discontinued before it became mature (before the bugs were worked out).
It was at this point I decided to exit the industry. The audio industry does not deserve any good technicians or shops any more. Those customers - everyone here - also no longer deserve any form of competent service or service organizations. Sorry, but it's true. Everyone voted that service of any kind has no value to them. That is until they need help, but then the cost is "highway robbery". The end result is that repairable equipment continues to be discarded with no way to stem the flow. Why is it cheaper to ship stuff across an ocean to market? That's wrong, those costs are borne by all of us in some hidden way. The last resort was the (totally stunned) decision to forbid certain materials to be used in (now) disposable products. Remember, this stuff was at one point in time considered "durable products". So now we all have another failure mechanism built into the junk we buy, while medical, telecom, industrial and military products are exempt. In other words, in any product that needs to be dependable, lead based solder and other materials are allowed. From the complete lack of comment in the media, I have to assume "the public" hasn't clued into this new rip-off.
BTW, servicing lead-free products requires different solder, and because the temperatures are higher, more frequent replacement of soldering equipment as well as fewer re-soldering attempts on products (due to higher temperatures). Lead-free solder doesn't wet as well and is not as reliable over time. Wave soldering lead-free solder is an activity I really don't want to think about. Normal wave soldered products have enough problems.
-Chris
Well, Chris, you just convinced me to never, ever buy parts off of ebay again. I was shocked when I was searching around in Mouser and Digikey looking at Mosfets. Stock was low or non-existent at either location on certain types, but boy, you could find tons of them on ebay.
I'm very sorry to know that the industry took a hard left turn somewhere down a dark alley. Kids today are yelling at their parents to go green all the time. I know, my stepkids tell me how I'm ruining the planet for them. But yet they want me to buy them all this cheap garbage for them and when I tell them I'll soon be able to build them a small amp and some nice speakers to go with it, I get the rolling eyes. They've been through 3 MP3s each and I've told them to enjoy them because I'm not ever buying them another one after that.
I'm very sorry to know that the industry took a hard left turn somewhere down a dark alley. Kids today are yelling at their parents to go green all the time. I know, my stepkids tell me how I'm ruining the planet for them. But yet they want me to buy them all this cheap garbage for them and when I tell them I'll soon be able to build them a small amp and some nice speakers to go with it, I get the rolling eyes. They've been through 3 MP3s each and I've told them to enjoy them because I'm not ever buying them another one after that.
Hi Chris,
"So now we all have another failure mechanism built into the junk we buy, while medical, telecom, industrial and military products are exempt. In other words, in any product that needs to be dependable, lead based solder and other materials are allowed.".
I think computers were included in the exception list as well.
David.
"So now we all have another failure mechanism built into the junk we buy, while medical, telecom, industrial and military products are exempt. In other words, in any product that needs to be dependable, lead based solder and other materials are allowed.".
I think computers were included in the exception list as well.
David.
Hi Dave,
They may be. I was unsure about that.
Aren't you happy that you don;t need to gear up for lead-free on top of everything else?
My main point was that the legislation is the wrong tool for what they want to accomplish. however, it's pretty difficult to legislate for good designs and high quality manufacturing. The other issue I wanted to illustrate was the results of consumers making the choices they have. Me? I'm pretty happy now since I only need to deal with nice people. That's opposed to running a shop where you are stuck with who-ever strolls through your door. I'm sure you had enough of those as well.
I often do see comments here that dismisses the work of repair professionals. There are members that are prepared to "learn" on an excellent amp or whatever, not understanding that that piece is very good and very desirable. That has always seemed a little selfish to me unless that person is willing to learn, buy the required tools and try servicing it once they learn more about it. There is a distinct feeling that service shops rip you off. This idea has merit, but there are several people around who have invested a lot of time and money on education and their work area. These are the people you want to seek out, and often turn out to be those excellent technicians that don't work in a service shop any more.
-Chris
They may be. I was unsure about that.
Aren't you happy that you don;t need to gear up for lead-free on top of everything else?
My main point was that the legislation is the wrong tool for what they want to accomplish. however, it's pretty difficult to legislate for good designs and high quality manufacturing. The other issue I wanted to illustrate was the results of consumers making the choices they have. Me? I'm pretty happy now since I only need to deal with nice people. That's opposed to running a shop where you are stuck with who-ever strolls through your door. I'm sure you had enough of those as well.
I often do see comments here that dismisses the work of repair professionals. There are members that are prepared to "learn" on an excellent amp or whatever, not understanding that that piece is very good and very desirable. That has always seemed a little selfish to me unless that person is willing to learn, buy the required tools and try servicing it once they learn more about it. There is a distinct feeling that service shops rip you off. This idea has merit, but there are several people around who have invested a lot of time and money on education and their work area. These are the people you want to seek out, and often turn out to be those excellent technicians that don't work in a service shop any more.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
I am very happy I don't have to deal with lead free solder. I read what Rod Elliot of ESP had to say about it and it doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. I am pleased though that I can still buy lead base solder for myself and my projects.
I understand the reason for the legislation and perhaps it is the wrong approach. I was horrified when I read the numbers of cell phones that hit the dumps daily in North America alone. We live in a disposable society where everyone whats more for less.
"That's opposed to running a shop where you are stuck with who-ever strolls through your door.".
Yes I remember. I had a guy bring me a top of the line Sony VCR once. he asked for an estimate so I took the time to price everything out. I could see that this machine was heavily used because of the wear on the mechanical parts and that's what needed to be replaced. I gave an estimate of 200.00. The guy spent 15 minutes on the phone lecturing me on how ridiculous the estimate was. He said that's like telling me it's going to cost 40,000.00 to fix my 80,000.00 Porsche. It went on like this. That machine with a head change along the way would have last him another 10 to 15 years.
And then there was the warranty wars of the nineties. Canada's own API put out a trashy power sub woofer and would pay us a whole 20.00 to fix it. Ya sure we will see lots of out of warranty repairs on that one. It was a legacy product in under three years. Discontinued, no support. In the garbage it goes.
Working for Shaw cable now is so much better. They don't charge for their service and I sure do feel a lot more appreciated and if someone does complain it goes right over my head.
Do I miss it. NO.
David.
I am very happy I don't have to deal with lead free solder. I read what Rod Elliot of ESP had to say about it and it doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun. I am pleased though that I can still buy lead base solder for myself and my projects.
I understand the reason for the legislation and perhaps it is the wrong approach. I was horrified when I read the numbers of cell phones that hit the dumps daily in North America alone. We live in a disposable society where everyone whats more for less.
"That's opposed to running a shop where you are stuck with who-ever strolls through your door.".
Yes I remember. I had a guy bring me a top of the line Sony VCR once. he asked for an estimate so I took the time to price everything out. I could see that this machine was heavily used because of the wear on the mechanical parts and that's what needed to be replaced. I gave an estimate of 200.00. The guy spent 15 minutes on the phone lecturing me on how ridiculous the estimate was. He said that's like telling me it's going to cost 40,000.00 to fix my 80,000.00 Porsche. It went on like this. That machine with a head change along the way would have last him another 10 to 15 years.
And then there was the warranty wars of the nineties. Canada's own API put out a trashy power sub woofer and would pay us a whole 20.00 to fix it. Ya sure we will see lots of out of warranty repairs on that one. It was a legacy product in under three years. Discontinued, no support. In the garbage it goes.
Working for Shaw cable now is so much better. They don't charge for their service and I sure do feel a lot more appreciated and if someone does complain it goes right over my head.
Do I miss it. NO.
David.
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