Hi Fred,
Heck, I didn't even have to see what was printed to know these are not the original numbers. Just look at the surface of the transistor. All those fine scratches. It's a re-mark for sure.
Mis-spelling Japan really does put the icing on the cake though! I'm not terribly surprised though. The price you paid was far too low considering the trade cost was $5.30 or more each. List prices depend on whether they are sorted or not. I've seen them priced from $10 and change all the way up to $35 ish each installed in repairs. The $10 parts are not sorted or matched in any way, just in case some of you have paid more in the past. The amount depends on how many had to be purchased in order to get the required matched set. I tended to stock about 20 ~ 30 on hand at a time.
Hi Dave,
Hi Zc,
Later transistor markings were changed to "laser etched" to throw off the people doing re-marking. You may even see TO-3 packages with a frosted appearance with laser etched numbers on them. Those markings can be pretty hard to read for us older guys. You have to rotate them to get the right angle in the light so the markings become easily read.
-Chris
Heck, I didn't even have to see what was printed to know these are not the original numbers. Just look at the surface of the transistor. All those fine scratches. It's a re-mark for sure.
Mis-spelling Japan really does put the icing on the cake though! I'm not terribly surprised though. The price you paid was far too low considering the trade cost was $5.30 or more each. List prices depend on whether they are sorted or not. I've seen them priced from $10 and change all the way up to $35 ish each installed in repairs. The $10 parts are not sorted or matched in any way, just in case some of you have paid more in the past. The amount depends on how many had to be purchased in order to get the required matched set. I tended to stock about 20 ~ 30 on hand at a time.
Hi Dave,
Totally agree! Couldn't have said it any better myself. I wonder what country these transistors came from? Certainly a low budget operation that has access to semiconductor marking equipment. Probably bought off of Ebay to add insult to injury.
Hi Zc,
Later transistor markings were changed to "laser etched" to throw off the people doing re-marking. You may even see TO-3 packages with a frosted appearance with laser etched numbers on them. Those markings can be pretty hard to read for us older guys. You have to rotate them to get the right angle in the light so the markings become easily read.
-Chris
Maybe it was not misspelled.
In (cantonese) Chinese, a "tan pan" printing means something like "made by three strangers"
Yes, it's this guy: goodbuy711/
I have written to him for a refund (ha!), and I will report him to ebay no matter what. I'm not counting on them doing anything, however.
Hi Edmond,
Since I have never seen a bond of any denomination, may I guess that it's the missing plural in "dollar"?
The way the denomination is written sounds very much like how I might expect an Asian person to say "one thousand dollars". Sorry, but I'm all out of other suggestions.
-Chris
Since I have never seen a bond of any denomination, may I guess that it's the missing plural in "dollar"?
The way the denomination is written sounds very much like how I might expect an Asian person to say "one thousand dollars". Sorry, but I'm all out of other suggestions.
-Chris
Hi Fred,
How about "Item not as described"? The picture in their ad looks like a real one, yours are obviously not even close.
I have to say that the price alone is enough of a clue, way below market value without a good reason. These were very good transistors - very reliable. No one would sell them off cheap when it's easy enough to sell them at the real list price. Stock is the larger problem, not price in the real world.
Avoid buying parts that have been discontinued for a long time. Unless there is an excellent reason for them to be available the way they are offered for sale, the parts are most likely not genuine. Often times there are modern replacements that perform better. Not always, but most times.
-Chris
How about "Item not as described"? The picture in their ad looks like a real one, yours are obviously not even close.
I have to say that the price alone is enough of a clue, way below market value without a good reason. These were very good transistors - very reliable. No one would sell them off cheap when it's easy enough to sell them at the real list price. Stock is the larger problem, not price in the real world.
Avoid buying parts that have been discontinued for a long time. Unless there is an excellent reason for them to be available the way they are offered for sale, the parts are most likely not genuine. Often times there are modern replacements that perform better. Not always, but most times.
-Chris
Well, if I knew then what I know now, I never would have bought them. Even at the time, I knew I was rolling the dice, but it was a small gamble. I guess, in retrospect, that's how these clowns stay in business.
It will be interesting to see what's actually inside.
And yes, now that I know to look for them, the scratches are pretty obvious. Oh well, live and learn.
It will be interesting to see what's actually inside.
And yes, now that I know to look for them, the scratches are pretty obvious. Oh well, live and learn.
Attachments
I think sometimes DIYers get a bit paranoid when something doesnt work and the first port of call is to blame counterfeit parts.
Designing amplifiers is not simple and great care is needed along with a good understanding of maths.
Even if something is counterfeit that doesnt automatcially mean they dont work or dont work as well, who knows they might be an improvement over the original part.
Hi Nigel,
I look at it this way. If I don't know what the real part number of a part is, it's junk to me if it ever gets separated from the circuit it was originally designed into. Nice clause that covers parts with "house numbers".
When someone doesn't know enough about a subject, everything appears to be very simple. An expert at least knows how much he doesn't know (if that makes any sense at all). This is where the majority of people performing modifications sit as a group. Destruction Inc.
Some recent designers really don't know what they are doing from what I've seen. The older tube guys seemed to know exactly what they were doing and what trade-offs are possible. Some recent tube product designers are worse than I have ever encountered. Not all, but many.
But, I have to say there is some basis for this if the parts are in fact counterfeit parts. Having said that, diving into a repair without the knowledge, equipment and supplies needed is something I disagree with. There appears to be a sense that technicians don't need to know that much. The fact that there are "technicians" out there that are incapable morons doesn't help the reputation of all those who invested in all the required things needed to service. The ongoing training and new equipment required doesn't seem to have any value to the public. The result is that many decide to learn on a product that they have determined has no value. It's sad what I see happening out there.
-Chris
As much as I don't like to think in terms of the best possible outcome, there are probably times when this does happen - despite the intentions of the counterfeiter(s).
I look at it this way. If I don't know what the real part number of a part is, it's junk to me if it ever gets separated from the circuit it was originally designed into. Nice clause that covers parts with "house numbers".
That is so true!!
When someone doesn't know enough about a subject, everything appears to be very simple. An expert at least knows how much he doesn't know (if that makes any sense at all). This is where the majority of people performing modifications sit as a group. Destruction Inc.
Some recent designers really don't know what they are doing from what I've seen. The older tube guys seemed to know exactly what they were doing and what trade-offs are possible. Some recent tube product designers are worse than I have ever encountered. Not all, but many.
There is no choice but to agree with you on this Nigel.
But, I have to say there is some basis for this if the parts are in fact counterfeit parts. Having said that, diving into a repair without the knowledge, equipment and supplies needed is something I disagree with. There appears to be a sense that technicians don't need to know that much. The fact that there are "technicians" out there that are incapable morons doesn't help the reputation of all those who invested in all the required things needed to service. The ongoing training and new equipment required doesn't seem to have any value to the public. The result is that many decide to learn on a product that they have determined has no value. It's sad what I see happening out there.
-Chris
You also have to ask the question what is an original part.
Some parts have numerous above board manufacturers.
I got caught out early on in my career with a memory chip that worked fine in the prototype. When they bought in the production parts from a different manufacturer the system didnt work reliably. As the parts had been bought I had to fix the design to work with any memory manufacturer. It waas an embarassment for the consultancy I worked for and a good lesson learned.
Some parts have numerous above board manufacturers.
I got caught out early on in my career with a memory chip that worked fine in the prototype. When they bought in the production parts from a different manufacturer the system didnt work reliably. As the parts had been bought I had to fix the design to work with any memory manufacturer. It waas an embarassment for the consultancy I worked for and a good lesson learned.
Or worse the perception rightly or wrongly that some shops charging practices were seen as ripoffs. How do you charge somebody for hours spent on a real dog of a repair job vs a blown fuse. Level the playing field so to speak is done to some extent I'm sure.
That was established long ago, and been a long road uphill since. The best tech's head for more lucrative or prestigious fields. Nowadays sadly, seems most consumer gear is junked as result.
If by "charging practices" you mean retail-on-retail (aka "list") pricing on parts, and $100 an hour labor it's not out of line at all. That's what you get at the auto shop or getting your A/C fixed in your house. And you gladly pay it. But when you get a bill for $400 to put in 16 new output transistors and 4 drivers it seems a little steep for a $499 amp. You could fix it yourself for $50 worth of parts from Digikey, but it will take all afternoon. A hobbyist who can might do that. One that won't (or someone who runs a business) won't - it goes to the dumpster or E-bay to get salvage value.
Hi infinia,
After watching many of my good techs head to industry over the years, I sold my shop and ended up in the telecommunications field. The pay was multiples over what I got doing service, I had to know far less and work much slower. Working at my normal pace made the other guys look bad. Even the equipment I used was much cheaper than the $20K bench I maintained at the service shop. Many of my guys had expensive benches (bought by me) and their own room to work in, an office really.
So it's very clear that the consumer electronics industry hasn't kept up with inflation and is seriously underpaying the technical staff. There is no recognition of the skill and hard work good servicer technicians do. The result is as you say, and the customer both looses again while really paying for it in every way. With the green initiatives in place, I'm wondering how long this sad state of affairs will last.
Hi Nigel,
-Chris
After watching many of my good techs head to industry over the years, I sold my shop and ended up in the telecommunications field. The pay was multiples over what I got doing service, I had to know far less and work much slower. Working at my normal pace made the other guys look bad. Even the equipment I used was much cheaper than the $20K bench I maintained at the service shop. Many of my guys had expensive benches (bought by me) and their own room to work in, an office really.
So it's very clear that the consumer electronics industry hasn't kept up with inflation and is seriously underpaying the technical staff. There is no recognition of the skill and hard work good servicer technicians do. The result is as you say, and the customer both looses again while really paying for it in every way. With the green initiatives in place, I'm wondering how long this sad state of affairs will last.
Hi Nigel,
That's beyond your control, just as the design is beyond your control. I'm now selecting a different part number for a high voltage pass transistor in a supply that runs around 450 VDC ... using a 200 V transistor. They even had to place zener diodes across the transistor to protect it. The output runs around 250 VDC, so you tell me. There are reasonable frequent times when the manufacturer picks an inappropriate part for a job. It's up to a good technician to recognize this and select a better part for the job. After all, the error escaped all QC personnel, the design engineer(s) and other staff. Someone has to look after these things.
-Chris
Hi wg_ski,
Okay, so where is the problem? Is it the shop? The technician? Or, could it possibly be a combination of the consumer (for buying a cheap amp) or the manufacturer (for designing a cheap amp)?
The consumer who voted with their dollars and made an active choice for cheaply built products that are no longer "durable" (that's actually a classification). As a result, the heat sinks are less effective (blows up easily now) with fewer transistors mounted on it. The consumer who damages the amplifier because the old Marantz / Sansui / ... they grew up with would take the abuse without failure is really and collectively at the root of all the trouble. This has also caused the problem with electronic waste and our lead (plus other) material ban.
Or, installed the three outputs (for example) that were damaged, uses the old insulator and thermal compound, then fires it up so the dead driver can toast more this time. My very worst customers of all time were:
1. Computer people. Just horrible to deal with and arrogant to boot. Often cheap beyond belief.
2. Engineers. They know more than you do (they think) and your time is worth little. They don't know when to stop working on stuff they aren't familiar with and are more than happy to tell you exactly what needs to be done. They want a deal too.
3. Some electronics students. There is a reason why they couldn't do the job - right?
The other issue is how to select the proper parts to use or even how to solder. Even tightening the output transistors on the heat sink tends to be done incorrectly. I've seen more than my share of striped threads and warped transistors. Never mind the fine details that make or break a job.
-Chris
Okay, so where is the problem? Is it the shop? The technician? Or, could it possibly be a combination of the consumer (for buying a cheap amp) or the manufacturer (for designing a cheap amp)?
The consumer who voted with their dollars and made an active choice for cheaply built products that are no longer "durable" (that's actually a classification). As a result, the heat sinks are less effective (blows up easily now) with fewer transistors mounted on it. The consumer who damages the amplifier because the old Marantz / Sansui / ... they grew up with would take the abuse without failure is really and collectively at the root of all the trouble. This has also caused the problem with electronic waste and our lead (plus other) material ban.
That's too optimistic. Try more like the person attempts to figure out what's wrong, and after several fuses has a badly burnt PCB on their hands. The extra damage caused increases the repair estimate to "sorry, not repairable", or another $100 or so. The job is worth "x" no matter what the original cost was, or how much in the way of previous repairs or your own parts came before.
Or, installed the three outputs (for example) that were damaged, uses the old insulator and thermal compound, then fires it up so the dead driver can toast more this time. My very worst customers of all time were:
1. Computer people. Just horrible to deal with and arrogant to boot. Often cheap beyond belief.
2. Engineers. They know more than you do (they think) and your time is worth little. They don't know when to stop working on stuff they aren't familiar with and are more than happy to tell you exactly what needs to be done. They want a deal too.
3. Some electronics students. There is a reason why they couldn't do the job - right?
The other issue is how to select the proper parts to use or even how to solder. Even tightening the output transistors on the heat sink tends to be done incorrectly. I've seen more than my share of striped threads and warped transistors. Never mind the fine details that make or break a job.
-Chris
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