john curl said:Well folks, those of you who care, should get AN1308 from On Semi (MOTOROLA) and see what output transistors they recommend. How about: 2SA1302 and 2SC3281 from TOSHIBA. The MJL devices are apparently copies of the TOSHIBA devices. Perhaps built under license. Why don't you compare the specs between the two brands? Go ahead, test next week.
We had an information that Motorola had been using Toshiba chips inside.
Re: John Curl
It is necessary to say what chips we speak about. None of the Sankens are as linear as Toshiba's 2SA1943/2SC5200 (replacement for earlier 1302/3281). But Sanken makes types with better SOAR than Toshiba (Sanken 2SA1216/2SC2922). It is a question of designers choice, not the DIYers belief.
ACD said:Are TOSHIBA now better than SANKEN???
I think DrG will disapprove
It is necessary to say what chips we speak about. None of the Sankens are as linear as Toshiba's 2SA1943/2SC5200 (replacement for earlier 1302/3281). But Sanken makes types with better SOAR than Toshiba (Sanken 2SA1216/2SC2922). It is a question of designers choice, not the DIYers belief.
john curl said:
They were actually from Motorola. Or did you miss this little bit in the introduction of AN1308:
This note focuses on the use of a new pair of complimentary Motorola bipolar output transistors, the 2SC3281 and 2SA1302.
As far as I'm aware, they're not simply copies of the Toshiba devices. At the time, Motorola and Toshiba apparently had some sort of strategic alliance going during which time these particular output devices (as well as a number of others) were developed. Once that alliance dissolved, Motorola continued to manufacture the parts but with the MJL designation.
Why don't you compare the specs between the two brands? Go ahead, test next week.
Why don't you actually MEASURE the differences? You're always telling people to go MEASURE things like you're always bragging about doing. Now you're just telling them to "compare the specs"?
We actually measured them, John. And the Motorola devices bested the Toshibas by a significant margin. That's why we stopped using the Toshibas and switched to the Motorolas.
And we go through these things by the thousands, so it wasn't just a fluke and we just happened to get a particularly good batch of the Motorolas. We've several years of using thousands of the Toshibas and several years using thousands of the Motorolas behind us.
The Motorolas are simply better than the Toshibas with respect to the 1302/3281 pair.
se
Re: Steve Eddie
Well just be aware that what I said only applies to that particular pair and shouldn't necessarily be extrapolated across the board.
P.S. It's "Eddy" not "Eddie."
se
ACD said:Thanks for your input.
I have always been fund of Motorola devices, but have ABSOLUTELY NO scientific proof that they are better than others....
Well just be aware that what I said only applies to that particular pair and shouldn't necessarily be extrapolated across the board.
P.S. It's "Eddy" not "Eddie."
se
Re: EddY
T'anks.
Hehehe. Well for what it's worth, we're still using the Toshiba 2SC4793/2SA1837 pair for the drivers.
In fact I've got some Toshiba 2SA1837s cooking on the bench (working on a little single-ended headphone amp) playin' some Eminem as we speak.
And there's a million of us just like me
Who cuss like me
Who just don't give a !@#$% like me
Who dress like me
Walk, talk and act like me
And just might be
The next best thing
But not quite me.
se
ACD said:Sorry EddY
T'anks.
My reply was not ment as, if you had stated that Motorola is better in general... I was just surpriced to read that there was others here on diyaudio (execpt for my self) that hasn't refused all Motorola devices
I thought Motorola was "out" in the High End" circles
Hehehe. Well for what it's worth, we're still using the Toshiba 2SC4793/2SA1837 pair for the drivers.
In fact I've got some Toshiba 2SA1837s cooking on the bench (working on a little single-ended headphone amp) playin' some Eminem as we speak.
And there's a million of us just like me
Who cuss like me
Who just don't give a !@#$% like me
Who dress like me
Walk, talk and act like me
And just might be
The next best thing
But not quite me.
se
Hi
Replacing 2SA’s/2SC’s by MJL’s as pointed out here only makes sense if the topology is already ok or “blameless” as Self called it.
OTOH selecting FET’s or BJT’s or even thermo-ionic devices for the input stage is a design choice and err… yes based on personal preoccupation/taste/insight or even marketing demands. Of course this personal preoccupation/taste/insight is always based on solid technical reasoning and extensive listening :grinn:
Replacing 2SA’s/2SC’s by MJL’s as pointed out here only makes sense if the topology is already ok or “blameless” as Self called it.
OTOH selecting FET’s or BJT’s or even thermo-ionic devices for the input stage is a design choice and err… yes based on personal preoccupation/taste/insight or even marketing demands. Of course this personal preoccupation/taste/insight is always based on solid technical reasoning and extensive listening :grinn:
Well, I hope to learn something here. I have two associates who are already using these parts, Jack Bybee and Tony G. from G&D Designs. I guess I will have to test some of these parts, since the spec sheets don't show me much difference. For some reason, Toshiba discontinued these particular parts and we have used another Toshiba pair in our cheaper stuff. Sometimes we even use Motorola, but again, a different part pair. We use Sanken for our best equipment, because they are bigger and better. (in our opinion)
mikek said:
I know the MJL’s have better specs
The 2SC3281/2SA1302 are listed in the Motorola data book of 1992. These data sheets are exactly the same as of the Toshiba’s. Even the Hfe marking is the same. So Motorola made these in licence or these are the same chips as the Toshiba’s (from the same factory).Cheers
ACD, you are recommending something on your website that should make even SE surprised. You are recommending EITHER MJL1302 or the MJL2194 complements for your output devices. The F(t) is VERY different for the two device types. Did you note this? Do you know what can happen when you optimize the design for one of these part types?
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