SUB...
I highly suggest a sub for your first time project.
I have been building my own loudspeakers for about two years now and I have learned much from my sub project. It is the simplest to get right and all the concepts that you learn building and tweaking it will all be applied later in more sophisticated designs such as 2&3 way systems. Plus if you go with a plate am to power it then you would not have to design a low and high pass filter “crossover”. I have to say this would be the main reason to go with a sub as a first project; crossovers are hard to design and understand. I still have trouble designing simple crossovers because it is such a sophisticated process.
Slice
I highly suggest a sub for your first time project.
I have been building my own loudspeakers for about two years now and I have learned much from my sub project. It is the simplest to get right and all the concepts that you learn building and tweaking it will all be applied later in more sophisticated designs such as 2&3 way systems. Plus if you go with a plate am to power it then you would not have to design a low and high pass filter “crossover”. I have to say this would be the main reason to go with a sub as a first project; crossovers are hard to design and understand. I still have trouble designing simple crossovers because it is such a sophisticated process.
Slice
Here's a couple of nice DIY sub's for you
http://www.mamut.com/homepages/Norway/1/18/dynabel/subdet89.htm
http://www.mamut.com/homepages/Norway/1/18/dynabel/subdet89.htm
this proac clone what drives does it use.
sorry for being so ignorant but i am just trying to refresh my memory.
if i remember right it uses a 3/4" tweeter. I have not had much luck with 3/4" tweeters (the D21af from Dynaudio was an exception that too under limited conditions) so I would be wary of that.
Also be sure if you are using a 3/4" tweeter that the mid can XO high enough.
then again i had a friend who was very happy using 19mm domes with 21cm woofers. He XOed teh woofers in the 1500Hz range and the tweeters in the 3000Hz range and was happy with the sound.
cheers.
sorry for being so ignorant but i am just trying to refresh my memory.
if i remember right it uses a 3/4" tweeter. I have not had much luck with 3/4" tweeters (the D21af from Dynaudio was an exception that too under limited conditions) so I would be wary of that.
Also be sure if you are using a 3/4" tweeter that the mid can XO high enough.
then again i had a friend who was very happy using 19mm domes with 21cm woofers. He XOed teh woofers in the 1500Hz range and the tweeters in the 3000Hz range and was happy with the sound.
cheers.
Seve- for a first kit have a look at the KLS9 project on the HiFi World website
http://www.worldaudiodesign.co.uk/products/kls9twdestext.html
They are relatively cheap and are a good beginners project, and sound excellent, as well as being fairly flexible for tweaking/upgrading
http://www.worldaudiodesign.co.uk/products/kls9twdestext.html
They are relatively cheap and are a good beginners project, and sound excellent, as well as being fairly flexible for tweaking/upgrading
pinkmouse,
this is much better link http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=66499#post66499;
this is much better link http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=66499#post66499;
Lose the room
One thing you said caught my attention, that you think your speakers sound "muddy". In my opinion all box speakers sound muddy. I have built Siegfried Linkwitz W-baffle dipole subwoofers-
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm - and crossed them to a pair of KEF RDM II (ports stuffed), which utilize Seas coincident drivers. This was my first project three years ago. Since then every sub I have ever heard ($5000 and up) sound muddy. The effect of reduced room interaction coupled with lack of box resonance on bass clarity is astonishing. Since room modes are most problematic below 200 hz, I beleive you will be suprised at the combination of your snells with dipole subs-very fast.
good luck, Jason
One thing you said caught my attention, that you think your speakers sound "muddy". In my opinion all box speakers sound muddy. I have built Siegfried Linkwitz W-baffle dipole subwoofers-
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm - and crossed them to a pair of KEF RDM II (ports stuffed), which utilize Seas coincident drivers. This was my first project three years ago. Since then every sub I have ever heard ($5000 and up) sound muddy. The effect of reduced room interaction coupled with lack of box resonance on bass clarity is astonishing. Since room modes are most problematic below 200 hz, I beleive you will be suprised at the combination of your snells with dipole subs-very fast.
good luck, Jason
Hi navin
the drives used in the proac clone is:
Tweeters
Scan-Speak D2010/8513-00 19mm (3/4") dome, 150W
Woofers
Scan-Speak 18W/8535-00 Carbon fiber paper, 178mm (7"), 70W
The whole project is nicely documented at the following page which one of the things talking for this speaker.
http://www.geocities.com/diyproac25/index.htm
Hi Pinkmouse.
Thanks for the link. This speakers seems like one I could mange to build aswell and the crosover looks really simple Have you heard it compared to the proac clone? I will look at the parts and see what it will cost compared to the clone.
Hi diypole.
Thanks for the link. I think that the crosover looks to difficult to me because I am not a wizz at electronics Was it difficult to build?
Regards
seve
the drives used in the proac clone is:
Tweeters
Scan-Speak D2010/8513-00 19mm (3/4") dome, 150W
Woofers
Scan-Speak 18W/8535-00 Carbon fiber paper, 178mm (7"), 70W
The whole project is nicely documented at the following page which one of the things talking for this speaker.
http://www.geocities.com/diyproac25/index.htm
Hi Pinkmouse.
Thanks for the link. This speakers seems like one I could mange to build aswell and the crosover looks really simple
Have you heard it compared to the proac clone? I will look at the parts and see what it will cost compared to the clone.Hi diypole.
Thanks for the link. I think that the crosover looks to difficult to me because I am not a wizz at electronics
Was it difficult to build?Regards
seve
Seve-
I have never heard the clone, but the design methodology looks similar to the KLS9's.
For other info try this thread-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3466&highlight=kls9
and this site
http://www.geezas.net/kls9/main.html
I have never heard the clone, but the design methodology looks similar to the KLS9's.
For other info try this thread-
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3466&highlight=kls9
and this site
http://www.geezas.net/kls9/main.html
planet10,
Thanks for the correction. Coincidentally ;>), I was looking through my Meniscus catalog last night and saw that Seas actually liscensed the technology from KEF, so my informant had it bass ackwards. I understand the integration issue, but the wife bought me the KEF's for Christmas that year, and the subs were my first project. The dipole stereo pair of subs were the only thing I could find that didn't seem to slow down the KEFS, and I will never go back to a sealed sub.
seve,
Do not fear the crossover, I still use an old variable crossover subwoofer amp I salvaged to experiment with.
Try Marchandelec.com for reasonable kits, or buy/salvage a sub amp with variable cross so that you can try the sub with what ever you might build. I would actively cross with a kit though; two peerless xls in that w frame connected directly to the amp puts out uncanny bass!
best regards, Jason
Thanks for the correction. Coincidentally ;>), I was looking through my Meniscus catalog last night and saw that Seas actually liscensed the technology from KEF, so my informant had it bass ackwards. I understand the integration issue, but the wife bought me the KEF's for Christmas that year, and the subs were my first project. The dipole stereo pair of subs were the only thing I could find that didn't seem to slow down the KEFS, and I will never go back to a sealed sub.
seve,
Do not fear the crossover, I still use an old variable crossover subwoofer amp I salvaged to experiment with.
Try Marchandelec.com for reasonable kits, or buy/salvage a sub amp with variable cross so that you can try the sub with what ever you might build. I would actively cross with a kit though; two peerless xls in that w frame connected directly to the amp puts out uncanny bass!
best regards, Jason
1. i guess someone out there can plug these values and find out the approx XO freq.
to me the tweeter XO looks a bit high but that is what i suspected with a 3/4" tweeter.
there might be a hole in the XO (the woofer rolling off before the tweeter) but this might be corrected by the difraction as well driver response if the woofer response rises in the 2-4k range.
to me the tweeter XO looks a bit high but that is what i suspected with a 3/4" tweeter.
there might be a hole in the XO (the woofer rolling off before the tweeter) but this might be corrected by the difraction as well driver response if the woofer response rises in the 2-4k range.
Hi,
I don't know if you desided on what speaker you're going to build. But I just resently built my first set of speakers. They're the speakers on this webpage http://www.zetagcorp.com/hig4.htm They retail for about $3,400 US and the kit is available from the designer and writer of the website for $300. I bought the parts separately off ebay and from him for about $260. I have $.08 a foot speaker wire in it and in my design I have a port and they still sound much better than any speaker I recall hearing. They're very effient at 92 db, my 60 watt amp has no trouble powering them although he says they can handle 350 watt. It's a 2.5 way design which I also like. I wish I built a box with an aperiodic vent (or whatever it's called) like the designer or even a regular sealed box, but I found out too late that his design wasn't ported. They have a very accurate sound. I would much rather have a second woofer for bass instead of a port like the proac and doing this while getting better effiecney. What do you think, Seve and/or anyone?
-George
I don't know if you desided on what speaker you're going to build. But I just resently built my first set of speakers. They're the speakers on this webpage http://www.zetagcorp.com/hig4.htm They retail for about $3,400 US and the kit is available from the designer and writer of the website for $300. I bought the parts separately off ebay and from him for about $260. I have $.08 a foot speaker wire in it and in my design I have a port and they still sound much better than any speaker I recall hearing. They're very effient at 92 db, my 60 watt amp has no trouble powering them although he says they can handle 350 watt. It's a 2.5 way design which I also like. I wish I built a box with an aperiodic vent (or whatever it's called) like the designer or even a regular sealed box, but I found out too late that his design wasn't ported. They have a very accurate sound. I would much rather have a second woofer for bass instead of a port like the proac and doing this while getting better effiecney. What do you think, Seve and/or anyone?
-George
Jimmy154 said:
George,
You using the stock XO? There is another thread here where someone ended up with a set of these and we helped him improve the XO to improve the sound.
The price differentials make one think of the white van scam. Can you post pictures of the drivers (or point us to the eBay auction w pics).
If you have a ported box, it can be made aperiodic by stuffing the port.
dave
I'm using the stock x-over and it sounds okay I guess. I must admit he sent me the wrong x-over parts twice, so that might have been the person's problem you were writing about, maybe mine too. The third time he built the x-overs himself and sent me them and he still mislabeled them, so that makes me suspicious. Infact he sucks at packing too. He sent me woofers twice and they were damaged, but I didn't care he sent me newer models the ones he uses for his own speaker (by mistake again), so I can't complain plus I got four extra woofers and one is perfect condition and the rest are fair. The website for the woofer is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1384164210, but I have the newer versions and they do sound a tiny bit better I think, even before he told me they were the newer version (they do look very slightly different).
The cross-over has 8 ohm drivers and it's a LR 12 db x-over. It uses 1.1 uF caps and 2.2 uF caps, I don't know how that works. He sent me 2.2 and 3.3 uF caps once which I still have. When using the x-over calculator at http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/xover/ 1.1 uF and 2.2 uF caps correspond to 9 and 4.5 KHz respectively (using LR 2nd order), but I don't know enough about x-overs to know what they're crossed-over at. It's a 2.5 way.
I got "scammed" by the white van people and then unknowingly "scammed" my friend. The speakers sounded good for not more than $200, I think.
I put a t-shirt in each port and then was told by the designer to use straws; they work better, again I can't remember so I'm going to say "I think." Do you have any better ideas?
I think I'm going to add 4 inches to the port so it's tuned to 38 Hz instead of 43 and then use straws, so I can barely hear the port.
I'm going to try to find the persons post about how he improved the x-over for his G4.
The tweeter in the speaker is a 8 ohm vifa soft dome tweeter and the woofers are very nice quality also with aluminum/magnesium/copper cones similar to the ones used in klipsh reference speakers I've seen.
The cross-over has 8 ohm drivers and it's a LR 12 db x-over. It uses 1.1 uF caps and 2.2 uF caps, I don't know how that works. He sent me 2.2 and 3.3 uF caps once which I still have. When using the x-over calculator at http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/xover/ 1.1 uF and 2.2 uF caps correspond to 9 and 4.5 KHz respectively (using LR 2nd order), but I don't know enough about x-overs to know what they're crossed-over at. It's a 2.5 way.
I got "scammed" by the white van people and then unknowingly "scammed" my friend. The speakers sounded good for not more than $200, I think.
I put a t-shirt in each port and then was told by the designer to use straws; they work better, again I can't remember so I'm going to say "I think." Do you have any better ideas?
I think I'm going to add 4 inches to the port so it's tuned to 38 Hz instead of 43 and then use straws, so I can barely hear the port.
I'm going to try to find the persons post about how he improved the x-over for his G4.
The tweeter in the speaker is a 8 ohm vifa soft dome tweeter and the woofers are very nice quality also with aluminum/magnesium/copper cones similar to the ones used in klipsh reference speakers I've seen.
Hi just wanted to say thanks again for all the input. As it looks know I will try to build a proac clone box when I get the time so that I can see how the box turns out before I decide wheter to order the rest.
I have a few questions:
1. The sides of the box are they just glued together or is there used some screws or perhaps those little tree thinghs?
2. The wholes to drives etc. should they first be made after the box is finished?
3. Anybody that can give me an explanation of how to add veener? My idea is that I would start at one of the back corners and add the veener all around the speaker in one piece, though then what about the top and bottom?
4. How much do you think I should spent at the crossover parts considering the performance of the Proac and what kind of crossover parts do you think I should look at?
5. I have some old speaker cable(around 9$m) would that be good for the internal wiring. How about wiring between the crossover parts?
Hope someone can help me
Regards
Seve
I have a few questions:
1. The sides of the box are they just glued together or is there used some screws or perhaps those little tree thinghs?
2. The wholes to drives etc. should they first be made after the box is finished?
3. Anybody that can give me an explanation of how to add veener? My idea is that I would start at one of the back corners and add the veener all around the speaker in one piece, though then what about the top and bottom?
4. How much do you think I should spent at the crossover parts considering the performance of the Proac and what kind of crossover parts do you think I should look at?
5. I have some old speaker cable(around 9$m) would that be good for the internal wiring. How about wiring between the crossover parts?
Hope someone can help me
Regards
Seve
I use screws. I alos build my boxes as solidly as possible. others on this forum have "accused" me of building tanks but hey I believe in doing it right the first time and not cutting too many corners.
i make the driver cutouts on the baffle before i screw the baffle on it is a bit easier to handle that way
i use wood veneer. you can add plastic veneer the way you mention. wood veneeer you have to cut. I have seen very thin wood veneer in the marklet lately but I use 1mm or 1.5mm version i find it easier to handle. this version will not wrap around the box so you have to cut each side. I prefer to make a 45deg cut so no edges of teh veneeer are visible. it is a bit tedious but i find it worth the trouble.
they way figure it get the solen caps and ask them for the inductors too. i would even go as far as to suggest to get all the stuff from one place it will make life easier plus you save a bit on shipping. XO will cost you about $30-50 each in parts. I assume you need about 6 passive components per side.
good speaker cable is fine. i use different cable for the woofer and tweeter. sort of like bi wiring. nothing special but i make sure i use teflon coated belden copper. I have others use silver. to be sure i cant hear much difference.
i make the driver cutouts on the baffle before i screw the baffle on it is a bit easier to handle that way
i use wood veneer. you can add plastic veneer the way you mention. wood veneeer you have to cut. I have seen very thin wood veneer in the marklet lately but I use 1mm or 1.5mm version i find it easier to handle. this version will not wrap around the box so you have to cut each side. I prefer to make a 45deg cut so no edges of teh veneeer are visible. it is a bit tedious but i find it worth the trouble.
they way figure it get the solen caps and ask them for the inductors too. i would even go as far as to suggest to get all the stuff from one place it will make life easier plus you save a bit on shipping. XO will cost you about $30-50 each in parts. I assume you need about 6 passive components per side.
good speaker cable is fine. i use different cable for the woofer and tweeter. sort of like bi wiring. nothing special but i make sure i use teflon coated belden copper. I have others use silver. to be sure i cant hear much difference.
Hi Navin
Thanks for the help
My plan was to use wood veener if possible, because the look of the speaker is very important that's why I will not buy the rest before I am sure that wood work turns out ok. When you make 45 deg cuts to join the sides is it then possible to make the cuts so accurate that you can't see the place where they are joined together because 1-1.5mm is not much? How do you do it? Would it not be easier to make all the holes afterwards you have added the veener aswell?
I have read some place that using iron screws is "bad" to the sound is that somethingh you have experimented?( I think it was at the ariel page)
My plan was also to buy it from one place just wanted to know how much to spend on the quality of the crossover parts.
Regards
Seve
Thanks for the help
My plan was to use wood veener if possible, because the look of the speaker is very important that's why I will not buy the rest before I am sure that wood work turns out ok. When you make 45 deg cuts to join the sides is it then possible to make the cuts so accurate that you can't see the place where they are joined together because 1-1.5mm is not much? How do you do it? Would it not be easier to make all the holes afterwards you have added the veener aswell?
I have read some place that using iron screws is "bad" to the sound is that somethingh you have experimented?( I think it was at the ariel page)
My plan was also to buy it from one place just wanted to know how much to spend on the quality of the crossover parts.
Regards
Seve
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.