Exactly the responses I was looking for!! Thanks all! I have the wetlook coming, I'll be buying some Titebond Melamine today, and tomorrow I'll call teh local reconer and see if they can get the CP Moyen stuff John uses. BTW John, is there a part number, or should I just say cloth surround sealer and they'll know?
I'm going to take each as evenly as possible spread it on a sheet of paper and then weigh them. See which stays soft for good dampening and keeps the mass reasonable.
Thanks again everyone!
I'm going to take each as evenly as possible spread it on a sheet of paper and then weigh them. See which stays soft for good dampening and keeps the mass reasonable.
Thanks again everyone!
Back in the old days I found a can of textile glue in my mothers drawers
and I've used it a lot on paper cone surrounds/suspensions.
It stank of cat's pee but dried to a nice rubber like form which I, in those
days, painted with a felt marker. Sure looked professional to me
The modern version is sold as: http://collall.nl/en/Products-and-productinformation/glues-varnish/Textile-glue/
'Polyvinyl acetate dispersion dissolved in water' so should be something like
the puzzlekote stuff.
p.s. No not the undergarment as I just realized being a non native English speaker
and I've used it a lot on paper cone surrounds/suspensions.
It stank of cat's pee but dried to a nice rubber like form which I, in those
days, painted with a felt marker. Sure looked professional to me
The modern version is sold as: http://collall.nl/en/Products-and-productinformation/glues-varnish/Textile-glue/
'Polyvinyl acetate dispersion dissolved in water' so should be something like
the puzzlekote stuff.
p.s. No not the undergarment as I just realized being a non native English speaker
curious...
do we all 'just go ahead and treat our drivers'? or is there always a reason/time to do it and not to do it.
How do you know when it's a good thing to treat it (with what, anything?) and a time not to do it.
can augerpro post pics/measurements of the driver, and from that explain why he has decided to treat the cone.
can someone else post pics/measurements and from that show why in that case you would NOT treat the cone.
once you have decided to treat the cone, as we have seen there are many options, so surely a bit of a gamble that you have picked the right one to get the result you're after, indeed variations within a picked treatment like 'not enough yet' to 'oops, dang, too much now'
is any driver immune from being bettered??? price does not mean a lot in life, but surely the real expensive drivers have been optimized by the manufacturer, or not??
Hey, I use pro drivers (albeit expensive ones) but you would imagine pro drivers (due to their designed use) would perhaps need/benefit more from treatment designed to increase hi fidelity??
Might make for a good educational thread, 'when to treat (and with what) your drivers based on measurements', and then of course 'using measurements to see if you have been successful'
do we all 'just go ahead and treat our drivers'? or is there always a reason/time to do it and not to do it.
How do you know when it's a good thing to treat it (with what, anything?) and a time not to do it.
can augerpro post pics/measurements of the driver, and from that explain why he has decided to treat the cone.
can someone else post pics/measurements and from that show why in that case you would NOT treat the cone.
once you have decided to treat the cone, as we have seen there are many options, so surely a bit of a gamble that you have picked the right one to get the result you're after, indeed variations within a picked treatment like 'not enough yet' to 'oops, dang, too much now'
is any driver immune from being bettered??? price does not mean a lot in life, but surely the real expensive drivers have been optimized by the manufacturer, or not??
Hey, I use pro drivers (albeit expensive ones) but you would imagine pro drivers (due to their designed use) would perhaps need/benefit more from treatment designed to increase hi fidelity??
Might make for a good educational thread, 'when to treat (and with what) your drivers based on measurements', and then of course 'using measurements to see if you have been successful'
Permatex makes a spray for quiteing squeeky brake systems. It's a translucent spray that remains tacky. Very popular in the auromotive repair world, as it dampens out the oscillations that cause brake squeel. Might be just what you're looking for. It's a translucent red color, and i've used it in blue from a different manufacturer. It doesn't harden, that's for sure.
terry j said:
Only rarely would I attempt to "fix" a driver, and I generally know what I am doing and have the capability to test the results.
I have found a few drivers that were so bad that I tried to "fix" them. In almost no case was I able to make things better. The driver was a poor design and that is all there was to it. I am sure that the designers tried to "fix" it too and found, as I did, that it could not be done. So they just sold the best that they could do.
The drivers that I use in my designs are highly refined and I have no doubt that I could not "improve" them without a substantial amount of work. And I could not do this work without the companies cooperation. Effective Bandaids on assembled drivers are going to be very rae indeed.
Some cheap drivers may respond exstremely positive to tweaking
Just be careful
One layer of thin coating may work very well
And then you think that just another layer of coating will be even better
And then the driver is completely ruined
I have also experienced that even VERY light coating to a dustcap can make a huge difference, that would need changes to crossover, or almost ruin the driver
The tar like stuff(roofing) I use can be washed off again, well almost
Just be careful
One layer of thin coating may work very well
And then you think that just another layer of coating will be even better
And then the driver is completely ruined
I have also experienced that even VERY light coating to a dustcap can make a huge difference, that would need changes to crossover, or almost ruin the driver
The tar like stuff(roofing) I use can be washed off again, well almost
Thats one way of looking at it, and usually I think like that too
I suppose the often advertised "handcoating" is actually a bit costly, when handling maybe a thousand units, even if it takes only a few minutes
Hopefully soon I will have my own driver up and running
With thread spider and felt surround, intended fore OB
Will be exiting to hear the first tunes
I suppose the often advertised "handcoating" is actually a bit costly, when handling maybe a thousand units, even if it takes only a few minutes
Hopefully soon I will have my own driver up and running
With thread spider and felt surround, intended fore OB
Will be exiting to hear the first tunes
Attachments
gedlee said:
Why on earth do you think that
I cannot understand why you say such
If it doesnt sound good I will just redo it, with some changes
But ofcourse, in some way you are right
Its a project I started yaers ago, because I needed it
Today I dont need it, so its going a bit slow getting it finished
These days it seems quite acceptable to have hifi as a hobby, as well as fore listening
Its about having fun
Hunting fore perfection is not so much fun
gedlee said:
I've got some real cheap 800 ohm and 4/8 ohm fullband philips speakers with a lot of
db's per watt which surely benefit from treatment. Cheap being bought for little money,
not cheap when they came out.
This lovely piece of real Dutch engineering:
Was really happy with treatment to keep cone breakup in line and
damp excursion a bit. More on the 9710
Now thats a beauty
I remember some 30years ago
Many people around here were building a special quaterwave Voight-horn, which got exstremely popular
But who can wonder with the crossover technique at the time
Point is that is was very well reputed with that Philips driver
Unfortunately, at the time Philips was replacing the original alnico with cheap cheramics
And that driver was far from the quality of the older alnico version
I have later realised that one of my friends probably had the genuine thing
Another funny(sad) thing is that the Coral Beta8 was becoming exstremely popular
Most likely because of its fantastic looks
And some liked the spunky top, I hated it
I never could bare to listen to them, with the transistor amps of the time
I have later heard that all it needed was a bit of coating
I once buil a pair fore a girl, mounted with RichardAllan fullrange with foam surround
Through my Dynaco ST70 they sounded absolute fantastic
The best I had heard in a long time, and I couldnt keep them
Not completely offtopic, as those RichardAllan drivers were very carefully coated, which was not very common at the time
Funny, I still seem to remember that sound
I remember now that I coated a Coral Flat6 with the foamy polyurethane glue
Whizzer removed
Through my QuadII amps they sounded quite good with a planar tweeter on top
But I probably never realised how close I was
I remember some 30years ago
Many people around here were building a special quaterwave Voight-horn, which got exstremely popular
But who can wonder with the crossover technique at the time
Point is that is was very well reputed with that Philips driver
Unfortunately, at the time Philips was replacing the original alnico with cheap cheramics
And that driver was far from the quality of the older alnico version
I have later realised that one of my friends probably had the genuine thing
Another funny(sad) thing is that the Coral Beta8 was becoming exstremely popular
Most likely because of its fantastic looks
And some liked the spunky top, I hated it
I never could bare to listen to them, with the transistor amps of the time
I have later heard that all it needed was a bit of coating
I once buil a pair fore a girl, mounted with RichardAllan fullrange with foam surround
Through my Dynaco ST70 they sounded absolute fantastic
The best I had heard in a long time, and I couldnt keep them
Not completely offtopic, as those RichardAllan drivers were very carefully coated, which was not very common at the time
Funny, I still seem to remember that sound
I remember now that I coated a Coral Flat6 with the foamy polyurethane glue
Whizzer removed
Through my QuadII amps they sounded quite good with a planar tweeter on top
But I probably never realised how close I was
gedlee said:
I've been modifying drivers for over 30 years, i haven't run into many that weren't better afterwards. I'll modify a driver because a/ there is no driver available that satisfies my requirement, b. it is possible to take an existing system and make it better for not a whole lot of investment (sometimes orders of magnitude), and c/ since i share my work it is possible for the intrepid diyer to do his own and end up with something very frugal.
dave
gedlee said:
I don't think there exists something that I would call a "good speaker" yet - all speakers existing today are a poor approximation, no?
Can you find a speaker that will fool listeners into believing an acoustic instrument is actually there playing in the room?
So far, all speakers are a collection of comprimises. If you can't afford to produce your own drivers entirely from scratch, then what option do you have other than attempting modification of existing drivers?
Dave
That's the point that I was going to make.
If, in the end, changing the driver itself does not improve the situation then it isn't the driver that is the problem. If there is no way for you to improve the sound by changing the driver, then whats the point in changing it?
As Dave said, some might be improved, but I have not found this to be the case, and its not without trying.
That's the point that I was going to make.
If, in the end, changing the driver itself does not improve the situation then it isn't the driver that is the problem. If there is no way for you to improve the sound by changing the driver, then whats the point in changing it?
As Dave said, some might be improved, but I have not found this to be the case, and its not without trying.
critofur said:
The problem is not necessarily all the speaker, but the recording process as well. A speaker can't produce something that isn't in a recording. With todays great new desire to severely compress everything that is recorded, a lot of the "life" is taken out of the recordings. Few recordings are done well enough that they can sound like real instruments. However, I've heard systems where you can run an acoustic guitar directly through the speakers and it sounds nearly identical to listening to the guitar played in the room. The same goes for other instruments. Then of course there is the issue with the setup of the speakers and the rest of the room.
Often times it is non-music that can be well recorded. For example on discovery channel, many nature scenes are recorded well. A system with TD drivers and RAAL ribbon for example can very accurately reproduce what is put in. Be careful if you have cats though because as the birds start chirping the cats may try to attack the speaker to get at the birds inside. It has been known to happen.
John
John_E_Janowitz said:
There isn't some jerk in the control room trying to "sweaten the sound" to his own taste.
I have recorded piano very dry and played it back for the pianist and he was amazed. He didn't realize how all that "artificial" stuff that was being added was making the reproduction less realistic. It may make a poor system sound better, but it makes a good system sound worse.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.