JAT,
You have told me to do a number of things, none of which are going to happen
.Judging by your rabid attention to my posts, looks like you would be in line to read my book, but it won't be available for free, unless it is bootlegged, like you do with your misappropriated posts.
I'm not complaining about the good times spent on this post, just about your endless trolling
.Art "Memoir-able" Welter
A bit more about this "troll" stuff.
One month ago you were thanking me for teaching you stuff in two separate instances, and I'm sure you learned a lot more in this last month from me than these things you specifically mentioned.
JAG's insight was an eye-opener to me, as I have never before given much time to the study of "full size", or virtually "full size" horns ...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...bass-horn-design-question-13.html#post4860254
Interesting, the dip in the SW curve at 2xRe may have been responsible for the upper reduction in output noted in the "full power" B&C18SW115-4 Keystone TH sine wave tests compared to the BR tests- the TH has upper pass band low impedance points, while the BR has a steadily rising impedance. As the tests were started from low frequency, which has better heat pumping, and ended with upper frequencies, which don't pump as much heat from the voice coil, the upper pass band compression noted in the TH compared to the BR makes sense, thanks for the insight.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design-240.html#post4864031
My most recent thread on full size horns was nominated twice over for sticky status.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...size-vs-undersized-horns-vs-ported-boxes.html
So what's the difference between a troll and someone who is teaching you things? Apparently it's just a bit of perspective, since last month you admitted a couple of times you learned things from me and now that we've had a couple of disagreements I'm a troll. I haven't changed, you just don't like me anymore. This says a lot more about you than it does me.
I could call you a lot of very well deserved names but I won't. I don't think you are a troll, I just don't think you are correct on a number of issues. Instead of name calling I prefer to prove the things I'm saying with as much evidence as is required, or at least as much as I can provide. You on the other hand, are quite resentful that you are not getting paid and have resorted to namecalling instead of technical debate as a direct result of uncontrolled emotion and lack of any kind of technical sources or links or any proof whatsoever. In lieu of technical argument you throw personal insults and CONSTANTLY talk about yourself in hopes that your resume is going to be taken as a direct substitute for actual information.
You can continue with the insults if you like, I really don't mind. But I will tell you this - if you think that's going to stop me from defending my perspectives and pointing out your inconsistencies you are probably wrong. The only way this is going to go away or even get better is if you step up your game quite a bit. Erratic recommendations that change with your mood and contradicting yourself are not going to cut it here. If you can't prove your points in a coherent and consistent manner I'm going to call you out. Call me any names you like but it's not going to stop.
One month ago you were thanking me for teaching you stuff in two separate instances, and I'm sure you learned a lot more in this last month from me than these things you specifically mentioned.
JAG's insight was an eye-opener to me, as I have never before given much time to the study of "full size", or virtually "full size" horns ...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...bass-horn-design-question-13.html#post4860254
Interesting, the dip in the SW curve at 2xRe may have been responsible for the upper reduction in output noted in the "full power" B&C18SW115-4 Keystone TH sine wave tests compared to the BR tests- the TH has upper pass band low impedance points, while the BR has a steadily rising impedance. As the tests were started from low frequency, which has better heat pumping, and ended with upper frequencies, which don't pump as much heat from the voice coil, the upper pass band compression noted in the TH compared to the BR makes sense, thanks for the insight.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design-240.html#post4864031
My most recent thread on full size horns was nominated twice over for sticky status.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...size-vs-undersized-horns-vs-ported-boxes.html
So what's the difference between a troll and someone who is teaching you things? Apparently it's just a bit of perspective, since last month you admitted a couple of times you learned things from me and now that we've had a couple of disagreements I'm a troll. I haven't changed, you just don't like me anymore. This says a lot more about you than it does me.
I could call you a lot of very well deserved names but I won't. I don't think you are a troll, I just don't think you are correct on a number of issues. Instead of name calling I prefer to prove the things I'm saying with as much evidence as is required, or at least as much as I can provide. You on the other hand, are quite resentful that you are not getting paid and have resorted to namecalling instead of technical debate as a direct result of uncontrolled emotion and lack of any kind of technical sources or links or any proof whatsoever. In lieu of technical argument you throw personal insults and CONSTANTLY talk about yourself in hopes that your resume is going to be taken as a direct substitute for actual information.
You can continue with the insults if you like, I really don't mind. But I will tell you this - if you think that's going to stop me from defending my perspectives and pointing out your inconsistencies you are probably wrong. The only way this is going to go away or even get better is if you step up your game quite a bit. Erratic recommendations that change with your mood and contradicting yourself are not going to cut it here. If you can't prove your points in a coherent and consistent manner I'm going to call you out. Call me any names you like but it's not going to stop.
Really? That's my fault too now? Half your posts are directly addressed to me and the other half contain the inconsistencies you wrote previously that I need to quote back to you to answer the posts you address to me.
JAT,
1) Having my "eyes opened" after not having looked at a simulation of a "full size", or virtually "full size" horn for some time- yes a real "teachable moment" which I thanked you for, love the way you are so gracious in saying "you're welcome".
2) Since I have not measured the Keystone impedance (Hornresp simulated impedance curve is "close enough for rock and roll") I had not correlated the upper impedance with the "power compression" several years ago when I did the tests.
I thanked you for the insight, in spite of your nit-picking any detail in my posts you seem convinced are riddled with contradiction. I don't mind correction of any errors I have made, I make plenty when providing free information, but you continue to post BS that is so FUBAR it is not worth responding to.
3) The difference is you can learn from a teacher, but a troll is simply annoying.
If you could learn the difference, perhaps you could come out from under the bridge and share your true identity with associates that might appreciate you.
I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, the definition of insanity is expecting new outcomes from the same behavior, and your behavior continues to be that of a troll in nearly every post of yours I bother to read.
I can completely understand why Toronto Ben does not bother to waste energy responding to you, dear troll
.Cheers,
Art
I didn't mention it (and never would have) until you started pouring out personal insults. "Troll" and "person I'm learning from" are two different things for most people, but clearly not in your mind.
I've always welcomed technical debate about anything I post, but that's not what you are doing. You keep saying "you can't hear 20 db deep notches two octaves wide" and "your sims are not reality", that's the extent of your argument, then you start talking about yourself again.
To be clear, the 20 db deep notches two octaves wide Direct sim is completely valid in the dual sub with 60 foot separation example. In that case the beams are overlapping through most if not all of the audience location so valid sim is valid.
I posted proof that you are contradicting yourself. You said "mains above or beside the subs", which is a direct contradiction of what you are saying now, and now you say you never said what I quoted. You wrote it.
You said "mains at the top of a telephone pole" which directly contradicts the ability to "lock in" anything, and you say that was OP's idea when you actually said it 4 days ago. If you didn't say it I wouldn't have been able to find the quote that you wrote.
This is the definition of contradiction and worse, you are saying you didn't say things that I can easily find quotes for. And you call me Troll.
I can completely understand why Toronto Ben does not bother to waste energy responding to you, dear troll
Cheers,
Art
LOL, clearly you are not paying attention. Ben doesn't address me DIRECTLY but half his posts are about me. Who do you think he's talking about when he says "sim lovers", "sim advocates", "some ignorant posters" and any other number of backhanded insults? It's a clever way to insult someone without technically breaking the rules.
Also you might recall Ben's sig line was dedicated to me for a 6 month stretch awhile ago, and he reinstated that sig line recently for half a day. Not sure why it only lasted half a day this time, he probably got in trouble.
To recap, half of what Ben posts is about me. By not mentioning me by name he thinks he's flying under the moderator radar but don't be mistaken, I'm his favorite topic of all time and he spends a lot of time talking about me.
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It's not about not wasting energy, it's just about respecting the fact that each has the right to think and write more or less whatever he wants to.Just share what you can, instead of trying to convince anyone, talking indefinitively about your desagreement, nobody HAVE TO correct everybody's mistake. It's not because someone feel he's right, that he have to become intolerant.
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Bill,
Pre-stress, good idea
. I have never seen more broken concrete than I have seen recently in Florida, and it is not all due to the sink holes, half the driveways have no re-bar at all.
I'm sure Eric will include all the concrete details with the Mini-Nuke plans.
Oh, forgot to give him the power output I want him to design for, 1200 amp three-phase 120/208 will be adequate for a peak power output, with usual demands of about 20 amps or less randomly divided among the three "hot" legs.
I want the reserve power for a project I can only share privately, wouldn't want "big brother" to know anything about any temporal anomalies that might occur in the neighborhood, you understand.
See you in the future, if not in the pasture ;^)..
Art
I remember being at Glastonbury Festival during the time they were using the Turbosound Flashlight System This had separate bass stacks under point source mid top horns.
It definitely had a sweet spot directly down the middle and a deviation of a few feet to either side could be noticed. But also standing to one side or the other was still a very satisfying experience. I still rate it as probably the best sound system I have heard.
Thing is the majority of people must of been to one side or the other but I can't remember 99 of the 100 thousand in the audience complaining.
I think that is because most of us are used to large variation in the amount of bass, because that is real life.
In comparison the Martin Audio system that has been used recently on the Pyramid Glastonbury stage, which has a mono bass array, sounds very disjointed in the bass.
On the second stage the sound system has been D&B audiotechnik. This also uses a mono bass array but sounds very focused and tuneful. I rate this as the best modern sound system I have heard.
So what if any conclusions could I come to from listening to these large scale outdoor sound systems.
Stereo bass stacks work with very little extra processing, and have a coherence which is very natural - but the interference patterns in the bass are very real.
Mono bass can also be made to work but take a lot of processing in a large scale system. This means that the system can be easily compromised by poor alignment. Bass is more consistent across the sound stage - The front of house for the Pyramid Stage is not even in the middle any more so is mixed for every man instead of the elite in dead centre.
I would say in a modern context that mono bass wins, but only when applied with great diligence and skill.
It definitely had a sweet spot directly down the middle and a deviation of a few feet to either side could be noticed. But also standing to one side or the other was still a very satisfying experience. I still rate it as probably the best sound system I have heard.
Thing is the majority of people must of been to one side or the other but I can't remember 99 of the 100 thousand in the audience complaining.
I think that is because most of us are used to large variation in the amount of bass, because that is real life.
In comparison the Martin Audio system that has been used recently on the Pyramid Glastonbury stage, which has a mono bass array, sounds very disjointed in the bass.
On the second stage the sound system has been D&B audiotechnik. This also uses a mono bass array but sounds very focused and tuneful. I rate this as the best modern sound system I have heard.
So what if any conclusions could I come to from listening to these large scale outdoor sound systems.
Stereo bass stacks work with very little extra processing, and have a coherence which is very natural - but the interference patterns in the bass are very real.
Mono bass can also be made to work but take a lot of processing in a large scale system. This means that the system can be easily compromised by poor alignment. Bass is more consistent across the sound stage - The front of house for the Pyramid Stage is not even in the middle any more so is mixed for every man instead of the elite in dead centre.
I would say in a modern context that mono bass wins, but only when applied with great diligence and skill.
I’m going to build (qty 4) 1/4-space full size 15 Hz exponential horns – each with an 8 foot wide & 14 foot tall mouth. The left two horns will combine as a half-space stereo channel, and the right two horns for the right. Assuming most bass is recorded mono, I will essentially have a single full-space 15 Hz horn (with the ability to reproduce stereo, if needed – depending on my final crossover point. . .. )
I was doing some back of the napkin calculations. If I cast my horns 10” thick on all sides, I’ll need about 17 yards of concrete per horn (not including the foundation abutments). Concrete is about 150 pounds per cubic foot, making my horns weigh 68,850 pounds each (just in concrete). Assuming I’ll usea moderate level of steel reinforcement, add 6 pounds per cubic foot for the rebar, or 2750 pounds per horn. All four horns combined will weigh about 286,420 pounds, or 143 tons (less the foundation abutment). This will cost about 8 grand in concrete (assuming around 110 bucks/yard), and 3.3 grand in rebar. The wall, and the horn foundation abutments will easily increase the amount of concrete & rebar by 50%. . . The big unknown is the forms. To be cost effective, I need to build just one set of forms, and use them four times. . . .
But more importantly, weltersys has convinced me that I need to target my horns (i.e. see below). Question – where the heck do I start with making this decision???
I was doing some back of the napkin calculations. If I cast my horns 10” thick on all sides, I’ll need about 17 yards of concrete per horn (not including the foundation abutments). Concrete is about 150 pounds per cubic foot, making my horns weigh 68,850 pounds each (just in concrete). Assuming I’ll usea moderate level of steel reinforcement, add 6 pounds per cubic foot for the rebar, or 2750 pounds per horn. All four horns combined will weigh about 286,420 pounds, or 143 tons (less the foundation abutment). This will cost about 8 grand in concrete (assuming around 110 bucks/yard), and 3.3 grand in rebar. The wall, and the horn foundation abutments will easily increase the amount of concrete & rebar by 50%. . . The big unknown is the forms. To be cost effective, I need to build just one set of forms, and use them four times. . . .
But more importantly, weltersys has convinced me that I need to target my horns (i.e. see below). Question – where the heck do I start with making this decision???
To help in the decision process, here’s my proposed main positions (shown in red). Two stereo mains, positioned above each “pair” of stereo bass horns (also a weltersys influenced decision). Thus the very bottom of the main stack will be starting life 15 feet off the ground, and only go up from there. My thinking is that one pair of mains is enough - and that if I had two pair (one over each bass horn), I'd lose more in comb-filtering than I gain in fidelity. Opinions?
My gut tells me with my mains being pretty high in the air, that I should seek a focal point between 35 and 40 feet (i.e. the linear distance between each bass horn mouth, and the listening focal point) - or possibly more (i.e. something resembling the horn layout on the right). I'm ok with the sound having a somewhat "above" feel. And I can always revisit putting the mains in front of the horns - if I'm unhappy with the sound. (I'm going to purchase fancy digital delays. . . So there's options. . . .)
Focal point distance - the 143 ton question???
And needless to say - the sketches are NOT to scale. . . ..
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I happen to agree with you on every point, though the only time I heard a D&B system the bass cabinets were directly beneath the L/R hangs. Bonnie Raitt had the same sound engineer mixing her the night I last heard her a few years ago as she did the last time I talked with her and he, the day after Stevie Ray Vaughn died in a chopper crash along with Bobby Brooks, Nigel Browne, and Colin Smythe. We had worked with those guys , and new some of them personally, she almost cancelled the August 28, 1990 Minnesota State Fair show, but her older brother Steve (my warehouse partner and friend since 1978) consoled her into bringing her ray of musical sunlight to shine on a tragic loss for the music.
As pros do, we "powered through it with two wheels in the air", just like she said on a the TV show "Sound Breaking" the other night.
That Bonnie Raitt Santa Fe Opera Crosby Theater semi-outdoor theater show using a D&B system happened to be one of the best sounding shows I have heard in a long time, regardless of act or engineer, and as usual I walked most of the venue to hear how it sounded- the mix was consistently represented at a very even volume in nearly every seat of the venue, a difficult mixture of open air, reflective concrete surfaces, and absorptive audience spread out over a wide vertical and horizontal coverage area.
Bonnie Raitt does not use "over the top" LF levels like hip hop or EDM performances require, and precise detail in the transitional area from low mid to bass, which I'd estimate was around 80 Hz that night is very important- it is right at the low note of a guitar, the second harmonic of a bass, and the "thump" of the kick that we want to "hear right" with the blues.
For music that uses the subs "for effect" by all means, put them wherever the "F" "U" can fit them. U won't get any argument about placement from me, because I won't be there ;^).
Oh, more memoirs, my 1981 L-2 2x15" bass cabinets, dubbed by Steve Raitt "Clams", were a direct adaptation of the Martin straight horn bass cabinets used by SuperTramp on their first USA tour. Steve came back to the warehouse we shared after hearing a portion of SuperTramp's sound check in which the kick drum had caused a fair amount of plaster to fall from the theater's ceiling on each beat, until the engineers realized they could not continue at that level without wrecking the joint. Naturally, this was something we wanted to pursue.
I whipped up a prototype, it was equal in "punch" to the "Collapsible Crunchers" Steve had bought from Eclipse Concert Systems to use with the Lamont Cranston Blues Band (on Shadow Records), the simple-to-build L-2 bass range was equal to the twice-as-large fiberglass curved exponential horns I was using at the time.
After the "mind blowing" revelation that bass (and low mid) frequencies do not need curved surfaces to sound (and measure) as good, the second iteration of the L-2 and L-4 used only a two-part expansion. The stiffer junction of the two part Vs the earlier 4 section "arc" actually made for more of the "punch" we craved that is often lacking in many of today's mono sub systems.
In March of 2016 the Minneapolis "Fine Line" club sold their Welter Systems 1981 L-2 "Clam" cabinets off, I don't know what they replaced them with, or even when they acquired them, other than it was after I left Minneapolis in 1995.
Rock and roll is not dead, and neither are my old bass horns, they are just living under another roof, with new cones pumping the kick out for another generation :^).
Cheers,
Art
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1) If there is any Welter Systems' influence in your sketch, it is way too obtuse for me to detect it. Please do not associate me, my company, or likeness to said sketch in the future, thanks for your consideration :^).
After looking at your sketch again, I get it, you completely inverted one of the concepts I described as the basis of system design. Wow.
2) My "gut" feels a little sick just looking at your sketch, but I have mentioned I can get a little queasy at times. I even get seasick below decks, I don't think I could handle a submarine unless they are as smooth as TV and movie sets make them out to be.
3) Yeah, you need to make some decisions. "Some guys" would actually try a few measurements or outdoor listening before posting
.4) No, we would not expect plans submitted for preliminary concept evaluation to be to scale in light of #3 :^).
I will expect the Mini Nuke plans you will give me to be to scale, as that project will be in your "wheelhouse", so to speak.
What say Eric, can you make my 11/30/16 pour deadline, or will that be a bit too much work to fit in before then?
I could probably wait till after you finish your pour, and see how that goes before doing the Mini Nuke, after all, what's a few months in the half-life of a pound of U-235?
Might only need a quarter pound, give or take an order of magnitude, but you will sort me out on that before I make my "purchase", right?
I'm really exited about our projects, Eric, and the opportunity to collaborate with an expert in all the modalities needed to accomplish the Mini Nuke with no consultation fees required is the kind of synergetic vibe that just keeps my heart going pit-a pat!
Thanks,
Art
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Whatever dude. I was trying to be nice in acknowledging your help thus far towards my design process (however cryptic it might be). Nonetheless, I will respect your wishes, and give you absolutely ZERO mention or credit whatsoever for my horn system when it's built . . .
Do me a favor - if you are not going to contribute to this post in a constructive fashion, then please stop posting. . . .
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Guys, this has been a trying thread
Agreed . . . . Just one thread contributor in particular has been constantly stirring the pot – making condescending & cryptic design recommendations, requesting money in exchange for useful answers, calling people trolls, razzing people about their chosen carrier fields, and generally being not-nice.
I expect this type of crap from political news blogs- and not from someone claiming to be an audio professional, on a DIY website. . .
Entropy455
Eric,
Darn, I forgot your design process was "cryptic".
Whatever..
Thanks for being so nice, acknowledging my help towards your "design process".
It makes me feel so warm inside when folks are appreciative!
How is the Mini Nuke design progressing?
Yours truly,
Art
I need to target my horns (i.e. see below). Question – where the heck do I start with making this decision???
Eric, I highly discourage you from arranging your horns in a concave array.
It will narrow the dispersion of your horns, there is no "focusing" or "concentration" benefit to it.
Please look at the material I posted two pages back, two papers about bass arrays. In both papers you will find information about what happens with concave bass arrays:
practical guide to bass arrays pdf
www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=8913[/QUOTE]
WOW – concave is a VERY bad idea. Thank you for the link bob4. I knew there’d be negative off-axis implications from achieving a focal point, but not nearly to this scale. . . .
FWIW, this bone-head idea originated from the below comment:
At this point, I am going to disregard everything weltersys has said. Toeing in my subs was such a bad recommendation, it could be considered sabotage. And shame on me for actually listening to him - in thinking weltersys has my best intentions at heart. . . .
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