sorry but this doesn't make any sense. Granted with speakers spaced far apart from each other you will have a narrow sweet spot/corridor in the middle, but with two closely spaced mains overlapping and playing back stereo material there would be no stereo soundstage, but massive combing of the mono component of the stereo signal. This concept makes no sense whatsoever I'm afraid.....
Hi JAG,
Yes, I don't get it either. There are no external walls as reflectors, so maybe a center in the middle of the bass horn w/ L and R flown high (above the sub)? Or the center flown high too? Large installations will use additional surround speakers to fill in the image. Sprinkle a few SH50s around the perimeter?
Regards,
Yes, I don't get it either. There are no external walls as reflectors, so maybe a center in the middle of the bass horn w/ L and R flown high (above the sub)? Or the center flown high too? Large installations will use additional surround speakers to fill in the image. Sprinkle a few SH50s around the perimeter?
Regards,
I think the lobing issue is getting blown a bit out of proportion...
10 m listening distance should actually be perfect, if the mains are placed on top of each far edge of the horn assuming the horn will be roughly 10 m in width, as Entropy has planned. Perfect stereo triangle, right?
Close up to the horn some small infill speakers could be added for the bass heads who like to stand very close.
Suspending the speakers very high is not necessary unless the crowd gets bigger. for smaller gatherings the mains don't need to be placed very high just above ear height......
that's an interesting question right there
OP should definitely get someone to make extensive measurements concerning the directivity of this beast
Bob4, I like the idea of elevating the mains. Weltersys made that recommendation also. I do want good stereo separation (which is why I was originally going to build a pair of bass horns. . . .) So new telephone poles are relatively inexpensive, and I can place them with my excavator – wherever I want (i.e. nice creosote treated powerline poles) .
If I install a power-pole on each side of the bass horn (about 30 foot total spacing between poles - actual spacing is flexible), I could fit the top of each pole with a pulley/cable mechanism. Then I could build a sleeve-bearing type jig, so that I may attach & hoist the hoist the mains up into the air. I could fine-tune the height as needed, and easily lower them to the ground for maintenance.
If we are talking larger kick-horns (which I’m assuming we are – 8 to 10 or so, 12” horn-loaded drivers per side – a first approximation guess), I could install two wooden power-poles on each side of the bass horn – adequately spaced, so that I may host the main horns as an assembly (i.e. picking the load between poles).
I don’t have a good feel for how high the mains need to be. The top of the wall will be just above the top of the horn – depending on how I construct the safety handrail. If I cast the handrail into the top of the wall itself, it will extend the height of the wall about 3 extra feet. My other option is to make the safety rail out of steel pipe, which would keep the overall wall profile lower. I have no preference at this point which way to go. The wife wants a decorative wall at the horn mouth, so there needs to be a wall. She’s made a very general requirement however, thus I’ve got some wiggle room. Should I provide a generous backfill behind the wall (to bury the horn), where the top of the wall itself might be high enough, and level enough, for placing the mains? I don’t know… . Also, I was going to go square mouth, however TB46 recommended something much more rectangular (lower profile). I have no preference either way - I just want to achieve my goal, of getting that sound I'm looking for. . ..
We are building our new house on the southern clearing on our property. I was planning on building the horn on the north side of the property, somewhat adjacent to the shop (as previously posted). However the wife is really stoked about this project, and she’s indicated that it would acceptable to build the horn on the lower portion of our property, not too far from the house!!! (where the horns would still be pointing North, and the house would be adjacent to them, a bit to the south - i.e. not in the line-of-fire).
If I install a power-pole on each side of the bass horn (about 30 foot total spacing between poles - actual spacing is flexible), I could fit the top of each pole with a pulley/cable mechanism. Then I could build a sleeve-bearing type jig, so that I may attach & hoist the hoist the mains up into the air. I could fine-tune the height as needed, and easily lower them to the ground for maintenance.
If we are talking larger kick-horns (which I’m assuming we are – 8 to 10 or so, 12” horn-loaded drivers per side – a first approximation guess), I could install two wooden power-poles on each side of the bass horn – adequately spaced, so that I may host the main horns as an assembly (i.e. picking the load between poles).
I don’t have a good feel for how high the mains need to be. The top of the wall will be just above the top of the horn – depending on how I construct the safety handrail. If I cast the handrail into the top of the wall itself, it will extend the height of the wall about 3 extra feet. My other option is to make the safety rail out of steel pipe, which would keep the overall wall profile lower. I have no preference at this point which way to go. The wife wants a decorative wall at the horn mouth, so there needs to be a wall. She’s made a very general requirement however, thus I’ve got some wiggle room. Should I provide a generous backfill behind the wall (to bury the horn), where the top of the wall itself might be high enough, and level enough, for placing the mains? I don’t know… . Also, I was going to go square mouth, however TB46 recommended something much more rectangular (lower profile). I have no preference either way - I just want to achieve my goal, of getting that sound I'm looking for. . ..
We are building our new house on the southern clearing on our property. I was planning on building the horn on the north side of the property, somewhat adjacent to the shop (as previously posted). However the wife is really stoked about this project, and she’s indicated that it would acceptable to build the horn on the lower portion of our property, not too far from the house!!! (where the horns would still be pointing North, and the house would be adjacent to them, a bit to the south - i.e. not in the line-of-fire).
Last edited:
We live in a small neighborhood of 5-acre lots (about 70 parcels), with the entire neighborhood surrounded by hundreds of acres of State DNR land. Our property is at the edge of the neighborhood, which is why I want to point the horns North. That being said, I’ve accepted the fact that we are going to potentially irritate our neighbors to the South.
The wife’s plan is to invite them over for every get-together where we’ll be playing loud music. If they come, great – if not, maybe they’ll be less irritated knowing they were invited. . . . Weed is legal now in this State (crazy right?) - maybe I can just get them nice and high, and we can all relax to some Pink Floyd. . .
The wife’s plan is to invite them over for every get-together where we’ll be playing loud music. If they come, great – if not, maybe they’ll be less irritated knowing they were invited. . . . Weed is legal now in this State (crazy right?) - maybe I can just get them nice and high, and we can all relax to some Pink Floyd. . .
I think the lobing issue is getting blown a bit out of proportion...
10 m listening distance should actually be perfect, if the mains are placed on top of each far edge of the horn assuming the horn will be roughly 10 m in width, as Entropy has planned. Perfect stereo triangle, right?
Close up to the horn some small infill speakers could be added for the bass heads who like to stand very close.
Here's two very different scenarios. First is OP's 30 foot mains separation, second is a much closer mains separation. We know the very high frequencies are going to beam like a flashlight, so I've shown the high frequency beam in red, in both cases converging at the hot tub 30 feet out.
In the first case there are going to be massive lobing issues. There's also the not insignificant issue that almost none of the audience is going to be standing anywhere on the red lines. I'm guessing most people will want to be standing in front of the hot tub.
In the second case the lobing issues are drastically minimized and a lot more of the audience is standing on or very near the red lines. There's also plenty of stereo separation for the people that are reasonably on axis and for the people way off axis, well they don't care that much about the sound anyway. People could stand right in the horn mouth and get some semblance of decent sound in this example, not so in the first example.
This is all about priorities and compromises. Where is the audience going to congregate? This will determine optimum mains placement, dispersion characteristics and toe in. Are you willing to trade lobing issues for a pushed back and smaller sweet spot or do you want minimal/no lobing and a much longer sweet spot that covers a lot more area on the sub horn axis and much less off to the sides?
Measurements concerning the directivity of this beast
Hornresp can show dispersion characteristics.
I have a conceptual question about horn beaming –
First assume a 15” driver in an infinite baffle. Low frequencies will propagate outward off-axis pretty well. As the frequency is increased, and the wavelength approaches the driver diameter, the sound no longer “rolls” off, but rather starts to transition into more of a beam (poor off-axis response). And with further increases in frequency, the beaming becomes even more pronounced. I’ve seen simulations for this, and I understand the concept.
Now assume the same driver is mounted in a large horn, where the throat diameter equals the driver diameter. Is the beaming phenomena the same as the infinite baffle? Or will beaming happen at frequencies lower than the wavelength-diameter of the throat?
I understand that the horn itself will add appreciable directivity to the sound (I played the trumpet in middle school, and a trumpet is quite loud when it's pointed your way). I'm simply trying to confirm my understanding - does a horn begin to beam appreciably frequencies that are less than one diameter of the throat? The trumpet is a poor example, because it's throat is very dinky. But what about bass horns? And midrange horns?
First assume a 15” driver in an infinite baffle. Low frequencies will propagate outward off-axis pretty well. As the frequency is increased, and the wavelength approaches the driver diameter, the sound no longer “rolls” off, but rather starts to transition into more of a beam (poor off-axis response). And with further increases in frequency, the beaming becomes even more pronounced. I’ve seen simulations for this, and I understand the concept.
Now assume the same driver is mounted in a large horn, where the throat diameter equals the driver diameter. Is the beaming phenomena the same as the infinite baffle? Or will beaming happen at frequencies lower than the wavelength-diameter of the throat?
I understand that the horn itself will add appreciable directivity to the sound (I played the trumpet in middle school, and a trumpet is quite loud when it's pointed your way). I'm simply trying to confirm my understanding - does a horn begin to beam appreciably frequencies that are less than one diameter of the throat? The trumpet is a poor example, because it's throat is very dinky. But what about bass horns? And midrange horns?
Last edited:
@ Entropy455
I do know that some satellites were nuke powered, but from the links i've read, solar seems to rule now.
You beat me to it ! Without CO2 we wouldn't have been born, nor would our ancestors or wildlife etc, as no plant life, trees etc which give out O2 & breath in CO2 would have grown !
CO2 is NOT Poison, it's a life giver. But so many lies have been told about it, & then constantly repeated in the media for years, that even otherwise intelligent people have been conned into believing that crap. FACTS & TRUE CO2 proveable Data etc only here Welcome
Self driving cars, electric or otherwise = NO thanx !
I would NOT try to get the mid-bass "kick" out of Any low bass horn. Yes, reserve the horn for playing only down low. If you brought the mid/tops closer to the listeners, you would need less SPL/Drivers/Power for them. But you would to delay them to match the bass. Not a prob these days.
@ just a guy
Yeah stirling engines are Very good. If you can get/make one =
I do know that some satellites were nuke powered, but from the links i've read, solar seems to rule now.
You beat me to it ! Without CO2 we wouldn't have been born, nor would our ancestors or wildlife etc, as no plant life, trees etc which give out O2 & breath in CO2 would have grown !
CO2 is NOT Poison, it's a life giver. But so many lies have been told about it, & then constantly repeated in the media for years, that even otherwise intelligent people have been conned into believing that crap. FACTS & TRUE CO2 proveable Data etc only here Welcome
Self driving cars, electric or otherwise = NO thanx !
I would NOT try to get the mid-bass "kick" out of Any low bass horn. Yes, reserve the horn for playing only down low. If you brought the mid/tops closer to the listeners, you would need less SPL/Drivers/Power for them. But you would to delay them to match the bass. Not a prob these days.
@ just a guy
Yeah stirling engines are Very good. If you can get/make one =
Depends on the horn or waveguide. If it's big enough and/or shaped right you can control the directivity to very low frequencies. Hornresp can simulate it.
Here's an odd little duck that claims 120 x 20 degree coverage and it's pretty small, 30 x 9 x 9 inches. I kinda like it, it doesn't waste power by throwing it where it's not needed.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/SBH-20-Spec-sheet1.pdf
I think it is angle and mouth size that matters for this, not the throat.
This site is pretty good at explaining directivity: Understanding Horn Directivity Control
For me, the surprise (it seems counter intuitive) was that narrow dispersion needs a bigger mouth.
For a practical example: JBL horn specs give good directivity info.
https://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2380ser.htm
The 2385a and the 2386 horns have exactly the same mouth size, 279x445mm, and exactly the same throat size (for 2" drivers). The 2386 is 50% longer, with a narrower pattern (also known as 'long throw').
The 2385a horn has a nominal 40 degree vertical coverage. The beamwidth graph shows widening vertical pattern below ~2kHz.
The 2386 horn has a nominal 20 degree vertical coverage. The beamwidth graph shows widening vertical pattern below ~4kHz.
That is: halving the angle for the same mouth size = an octave less control.
Note (and apologies if this was already obvious): part of the SPL boost of horns is due to their directivity. Again, referencing those two JBL horns:
The wider 2385a specs less gain from directivity but more bandwidth for it (Average Range: 1 kHz 16 kHz) vs. the narrower 2386 (Average Range: 2 kHz-16 kHz)
Here is a scribble enhanced excerpt from those spec sheets, as a real example of the relationship of coverage angle vs. the frequency that control is maintained, for two horns with the same throat & mouth sizes.
20x40 on top
40x60 below
--> note there would be less pink scribble below ~12kHz if JBL had have added 10 degrees to their nominal horizontal patterns, and called them:
20x50
40x70
20x40 on top
40x60 below
--> note there would be less pink scribble below ~12kHz if JBL had have added 10 degrees to their nominal horizontal patterns, and called them:
20x50
40x70
Attachments
Doesn't that ignore the whole 'impedance match' thing that horns do?
Imagine: you are standing in a small bathroom with a trumpet player, and she is facing away from you* (so: no gain from directivity, but also nothing to absorb reflected sound).
Which will be louder?
a) her blowing air to make a long 'ppppft' noise with her mouth
b) her blowing air / making the same noise into a trumpet
* an unusual party, perhaps...
Eric,
I still am attracted to this post, like watching train wrecks and airplane crashes, it has all the "fun stuff", like your facts of how the increased carbon dioxide levels due to our exponentially increasing population demands which have doubled in my half-life starting in 1956 are now requiring orders of magnitude increased depletion of the planet's carbon based energy reserves are somehow a "good thing". I hope we have figured out how to preserve the planet when I am 125 years old, but with my head preserved in a jar, the external world could be as ephemeral as this post.
1) Crank lift towers are less expensive than creosote treated power line poles, and do not require any additional engineering to elevate speakers to any desired height, and can be easily moved to any desired stereo separation, located in the same plane as the sub(s).
2) See #1.
3) The azimuth of the mains height determines the location of what the system is broadcasting. The height should be determined by your desired listening position in a concert situation- if you prefer a balcony seat, the mains would need to be below grade outdoors, but if you like the usual 1 to 5 degree upwards location of the stage source of sound, at the relatively close distance you may be considering (whatever it is today) the height will not need to be above the bass horn(s) wall.
If properly designed horns and drivers are used, up to 90 degree dispersion without "pinched" diffraction throats can provide constant directivity to 16 kHz using 1.4" exit 3" diaphragm HF drivers, allowing the same horn type to be used L/R/C, each covering the desired listening area for an immersive sound field presentation.
If considering an installation as labor and cost extensive as yours, a L/R/C mains as Oliver suggested in post #453 to do justice to movie presentations, with the inclusion of surround speakers and overhead speaker locations as required to properly reproduce the "Atmos" format that may become the "new normal" would be a very good idea.
Art
Last edited:
Then also, an expanding horn is going to beam at higher frequencies. A conical won't load the lows and would be very large. eg, mid horns are often between the two.
You were talking earlier about stereo speakers in the same light as driver separation on a single baffle. Is it really the same problem? Yes, you'll get comb filtering, but not at the listening position. What is the problem with that?
By the way, since I've started to contribute a lot of ideas and opinions, I figured it would be good if I tell briefly about my background: Apart from bass speaker DIY (15"reflex, HD15, X1) I've done small and medium size system engineering and mixing (reggae, rock, rap, electronic) on more or less DIYish PA systems indoors and outdoors for about ten years. Most of them have involved two way bass solution, for example bandpass & bandpasshorn (X1 & HD15), or rear loaded 18" horn with front loaded horns or reflex. A long shot from the experience and stature of someone like Art.
Nice plan! I can't make any contribution about the actual rigging setup since I don't have any experience with stuff like that, but I'm sure Art will help you out on that one
In general, it would be beneficial if your rigging system allows you to tilt and point your loudspeakers precisely. No point in hoisting them up if they dangle about randomly like christmas tree decoration....
Hoisting up the mains has two main benefits and one drawback.
Drawback: distance to listener increases, sufficient headroom is needed to counteract.
The benefits:
1. more even SPL coverage = less variation in level between front and back.
2. the stereo triangle is no longer just in the horizontal, but also vertical. This means if you tilt the mains a little bit down so that they also cover the space close up to the bass horn mouth, you should get good a good stereo image from the mains up close to the horn.
Keep in mind that the dispersion of your mains and the orientation will determine coverage. One more parameter to play with. You can optimize to get good coverage close to the horn and at your hot tub listening spot, or point your speakers to cover the hot tub and far field beyond it at the expense of the area close up to the horn.
On the other hand in practice I have to say, with a ground stacked stereo system spaced about 8m, you can get a nice coverage and stereo effect.
making the horn wide will help the coupling to the mains if you choose to have them lowish (just above ear height).
Look at the system in my picture. 6 x 18" rear loaded horn for under 80 Hz, 2 x single 18" front loaded horn for 80 - 200 Hz, 4 x 12" FLH 200 - 1000 Hz, 4 x 2" (2x EV DH1 and 2x JBL 2445 on 2380) for 1 kHz upwards.
sub to kick ratio is 6 to 1. I'm confident your horn can do both. above 150 - 200 Hz there is increasingly less excursion required. I'm also confident you will not need a big array of kick horns. You should be able to cross over directly into a sufficiently potent full range horn loudspeaker, like Art's SyntripP, the Peter Morris DIY top, or any fully loaded commercial horn top.
check out Rog Mogales Rubic horn for example - a very long rearloaded horn:
Rubic Horn - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 4
Nice plan! I can't make any contribution about the actual rigging setup since I don't have any experience with stuff like that, but I'm sure Art will help you out on that one
In general, it would be beneficial if your rigging system allows you to tilt and point your loudspeakers precisely. No point in hoisting them up if they dangle about randomly like christmas tree decoration....
Hoisting up the mains has two main benefits and one drawback.
Drawback: distance to listener increases, sufficient headroom is needed to counteract.
The benefits:
1. more even SPL coverage = less variation in level between front and back.
2. the stereo triangle is no longer just in the horizontal, but also vertical. This means if you tilt the mains a little bit down so that they also cover the space close up to the bass horn mouth, you should get good a good stereo image from the mains up close to the horn.
Keep in mind that the dispersion of your mains and the orientation will determine coverage. One more parameter to play with. You can optimize to get good coverage close to the horn and at your hot tub listening spot, or point your speakers to cover the hot tub and far field beyond it at the expense of the area close up to the horn.
On the other hand in practice I have to say, with a ground stacked stereo system spaced about 8m, you can get a nice coverage and stereo effect.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
making the horn wide will help the coupling to the mains if you choose to have them lowish (just above ear height).
Look at the system in my picture. 6 x 18" rear loaded horn for under 80 Hz, 2 x single 18" front loaded horn for 80 - 200 Hz, 4 x 12" FLH 200 - 1000 Hz, 4 x 2" (2x EV DH1 and 2x JBL 2445 on 2380) for 1 kHz upwards.
sub to kick ratio is 6 to 1. I'm confident your horn can do both. above 150 - 200 Hz there is increasingly less excursion required. I'm also confident you will not need a big array of kick horns. You should be able to cross over directly into a sufficiently potent full range horn loudspeaker, like Art's SyntripP, the Peter Morris DIY top, or any fully loaded commercial horn top.
check out Rog Mogales Rubic horn for example - a very long rearloaded horn:
Rubic Horn - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 4
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.