To continue my speaker building hobby I’m posting a complete pair of Troels Gravesen’s “The Loudspeaker“ TL-1 which you can look into easily with a simple web search if you are not familiar. This version uses the Hypex plate amplifier for subwoofer duty and based on its efficiency only requires a handful of watts to drive the top end. I’ve been happy driving it with 300b tube amp as well as solid state amps including a DIY Pass Aleph-J. They also sound great with several class a/b amps. Describing sound is very subjective so I’ll just make a few observations based on my opinion. The crossover as designed by Troels seemed a little mid range centric to my liking so I very slightly padded the midrange (in midrange cabinet easily removable). Overall the presentation is the most dynamic I’ve heard to date from any speaker. These speakers are very smooth sounding and capable of playing to ear bleeding levels. Of all the speakers I’ve owned it seems friends and family connect with these more than anything else I’ve had because they are easy to listen to yet present detail and dynamics in a way few other speakers can. I’m a FOH engineer and regularly get to mess with PA gear and can say with confidence that the 18N862 is the best sounding woofer I’ve encountered!
Here are some additional details on the build:
Here are some additional details on the build:
- Crossover uses superior caps on the midrange and alumen-z on horn and super tweeter.
- The Hypex used is bridged 252 instead of 501 as provided in kit (original USB program for woofers is included as well as plans)
- The build is out of 1“ Baltic birch built by me
- I contracted out the finishing in rosewood with black painted baffle. The quality of finish is like 8/10; I wasn’t thrilled with what I got compared to previous finishes obtained using a different furniture maker but it’s decent. I’ll add some additional photos to show you what I mean. I have ~$1500 is the finishing not including my cost to build the cabinets which easily is $500+ (1” Baltic Birch where I live is very expensive now)
- Current cost of kit without any fees/shipping is $2513 USD + cost of drivers from Lean Business UK is $2529.09 again not including any fees/shipping
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I’m an engineer at heart and am going to attempt to design and build a Frankenstein of the two as between the two they have absolutely everything. High efficiency open baffle is the goal but will be doing lots of testing before I am sure what exactly it will be. Probably narrow baffle like LX521’s running as a 4-way with my Zapco HDSP but still largely TBD
So I went to a concert this past Tuesday at Red Rocks amphitheater and thought to myself this would sound way better on the TL-1s at home
. I don’t exercise them all that often but for my purposes and seating distance you can recreate pretty much any SPL desirable. I remember watching the woofers of the LX521 bounce inches without much impact; with the TL-1s I simply don’t worry and listen at any desired level. I found myself rotating in music that I enjoyed more than trying to find music that worked well with my speakers…. A side note, it took a while for those stiff woofers and mids to break in. I never worried about that with hifi drivers but would recommend exercising them in free air before finishing your build!
Thank you so much for the feedback. Coming back from munich high end I did end up falling for a speaker costing 180,000€!!! Oops! The speaker are: lm1from lorenzo audio.
I do see some design similarities between the TL1 and the Lorenzo audio. If that's the case then it's touch down for me.
I am doing a version of this. An OBL15 Faital 15PR400 woofer/passive compensation network on a 30"H x 32"W baffle and actively crossed at 125 Hz to the top LX521.4 section. Good luck with sale!I’m an engineer at heart and am going to attempt to design and build a Frankenstein of the two as between the two they have absolutely everything. High efficiency open baffle is the goal but will be doing lots of testing before I am sure what exactly it will be. Probably narrow baffle like LX521’s running as a 4-way with my Zapco HDSP but still largely TBD
Would this even remotely possible for international sales? I have a friend may be interested if that's possible, shoot me a PM if that's the case
Malaysia, postcode for starter can be 47000, knowing how big these are, packing it safely itself can be a challenges, having it shipped with a courier (sea freight most likely) it's anotherI mean shipping may be very expensive and I don’t have experience with exporting but I’m sure I’ve done harder things in my life
No worries u have a think and if that can be arrange feasibly then shoot me a PM
Hello jf4828—
Impressive build of an impressive speaker system!
Came across your post just as I ordered the TL-1 drivers—minus the BMS woofers which I already have—from Lean Business.
Your description of their performance is just what wanted to hear! Can't help wondering why you're selling them.
The main reason why I have thus far just ordered the drivers—and given my cabinetmaker a heads-up—is that I'm considering making an (almost) fully active pair of TL-1, using professional measurement equipment and a refurbished dbx DriveRack 4820. I've used this speaker processor in a number of projects and continue to be impressed with both its audio quality and flexibility.
Amps would probably be MC2 Audio S1400 for the bass, MC2 Audio S800 for the mids, and a second S800 for the horn and supertweeter.
Any thoughts on this approach as an alternative to Troels Gravesen "semi-active" system?
The other other alternative would, of course, be purchasing yours! Any idea of the cost of crating and shipping to Toronto (Canada M6P 4H3) ?
Regards, JT.
Impressive build of an impressive speaker system!
Came across your post just as I ordered the TL-1 drivers—minus the BMS woofers which I already have—from Lean Business.
Your description of their performance is just what wanted to hear! Can't help wondering why you're selling them.
The main reason why I have thus far just ordered the drivers—and given my cabinetmaker a heads-up—is that I'm considering making an (almost) fully active pair of TL-1, using professional measurement equipment and a refurbished dbx DriveRack 4820. I've used this speaker processor in a number of projects and continue to be impressed with both its audio quality and flexibility.
Amps would probably be MC2 Audio S1400 for the bass, MC2 Audio S800 for the mids, and a second S800 for the horn and supertweeter.
Any thoughts on this approach as an alternative to Troels Gravesen "semi-active" system?
The other other alternative would, of course, be purchasing yours! Any idea of the cost of crating and shipping to Toronto (Canada M6P 4H3) ?
Regards, JT.
Hi JT,
Thank you for the compliments! Reselling primarily because I’m a dipole fan and want to fund a somewhat high-end dipole build and really enjoy speaker building process and am always looking at “what’s next”. I don’t think I’ve ever kept a build very long
So one of the primary reasons I built the TL-1’s is because I have been playing with, building and enjoying lower wattage class A amps. So for me, having the bass split out allowed me to try out various low wattage amps on the top with great success. Prior to TL-1s the LX521’s I built were fully active using an analog signal processor. I personally think there is an audible difference between different ADC/DAC solutions and prefer analog up top. For the LX521’s I went from miniDSP to an analog signal processor and vastly preferred the analog solution. Running fully active has its advantages and disadvantages so just make sure you know what you are in for
. My next build will mostly likely be fully active (unless miracles happen and passive crossover is possible). However, I’m also using a DSP that has ESS 9038 pro DACs and sounds good to my ears (ZAPCO HDSP). That was not my observation with the miniDSP 4x10. I’m sure there are some on this forum that would disagree with my observations but hey you do you
. I have used DBX drive racks before in a pro environment but can’t comment because the application and quality of other components in the chain were so different……Overall, if you like the sound of the passive version then you free yourself to play with other components later. While I have 0 eq on them right now, I do run an ADI-2 pro DAC which does have EQ so that you can tweak the response slightly without much of a downside(not crossover of course).
I’m not sure where you are on the loudspeaker design front but getting to the passive crossover’s level cohesion could be done actively but it’s by no means a trivial task as Troels is a very skilled designer.
So I’ve pallet shipped across the country a few years ago and it was $400-600 if memory serves. I’m guessing it’d run about $1k or so given crazy inflation lately….. I’d consider keeping the 18N862 to cover shipping cost as I’d love to use them on another project?! If you get serious let me know and I’ll get a real quote but it takes a few hours of work on my side to sort out as it’s a bit more complicated than shipping a box. Of course you are always welcome to vacation in Colorado as the mountains are beautiful this time of year (I actually sold a pair of speakers this way in the past!)
Thanks for the quick response! Much appreciated.
As regards DriveRacks, the ones commonly used in sound reinforcement, e.g., the PA2, the 260—no experience yet with the Venu 360—don't qualify in my experience, for use in hi-fi systems. Compared to those or to the mini-DSP models, the now-discontinued 4800 and 4820 are in my opinion far better. Some studios use them to run their main monitors. I only wish dbx had come up with a replacement for them as I'm sure they'd benefit from advancements in digital technology, since their design goes back to 2003. The Zapco processor you mention looks very promising, though I'm restricted to balanced XLR connections so they wouldn't work for me. But I've got a couple of DACs that use the ESS 9038Pro chip and have only good things to say about them. I do slightly prefer the some AKM-based DACs, although of course one is always hearing a DAC through the manufacturer's analogue output circuitry, which is just as important.
But. . .to your TL-1s. . .
1. How exactly did you follow Troels Gravesen's build plan? As I'm sure you know, he's very specific even about what damping materials to use inside the cabinet and where to put them: 8 mm felt in certain places, Acoustilux (not sure what that is) in other places. Or the type and position of the bracing he prescribes. These are just examples that come readily to mind. And if you didn't always follow his specs exactly, could you explain at what points you departed from them?
2. You mention you used the 252 amp instead of the FA501 that TG uses. Assuming that's the FA252, is there any difference between a bridged 252 and a non-bridged 501? As you can see from (1) above, I'm deliberately being quite neurotic about wanting to exactly duplicate what TG did and wanting to be certain even small changes would not change performance. Also in this "slavishly following TG" way of thinking, would you be able to specify what changes you made to which passive crossover components so that I could, if I wished, restore the passive crossover to TG's original design?
3. For shipping to my location, around US$1K seems, alas, quite possible, as I imagine, at around 200 lbs. each, they'll have to be crated and palletized—plus that UHF driver perched on top will need special protection, and the shipper will have to clear them through Canadian Customs.
4. I could make do without the 18N682s in your cabs and simply mount the ones I already have. I think I paid more than US$1K for mine—will have to check. But, in principal, the idea of funding the shipping by you keeping the woofers works for me.
5. In conclusion, I am serious about purchasing your TL-1s at the price you have quoted and would appreciate what you call "a real quote" for getting them to Toronto, ON, Canada M6P 4H3. I understand that may take awhile.
Let me know what you think. Regards, JT.
As regards DriveRacks, the ones commonly used in sound reinforcement, e.g., the PA2, the 260—no experience yet with the Venu 360—don't qualify in my experience, for use in hi-fi systems. Compared to those or to the mini-DSP models, the now-discontinued 4800 and 4820 are in my opinion far better. Some studios use them to run their main monitors. I only wish dbx had come up with a replacement for them as I'm sure they'd benefit from advancements in digital technology, since their design goes back to 2003. The Zapco processor you mention looks very promising, though I'm restricted to balanced XLR connections so they wouldn't work for me. But I've got a couple of DACs that use the ESS 9038Pro chip and have only good things to say about them. I do slightly prefer the some AKM-based DACs, although of course one is always hearing a DAC through the manufacturer's analogue output circuitry, which is just as important.
But. . .to your TL-1s. . .
1. How exactly did you follow Troels Gravesen's build plan? As I'm sure you know, he's very specific even about what damping materials to use inside the cabinet and where to put them: 8 mm felt in certain places, Acoustilux (not sure what that is) in other places. Or the type and position of the bracing he prescribes. These are just examples that come readily to mind. And if you didn't always follow his specs exactly, could you explain at what points you departed from them?
2. You mention you used the 252 amp instead of the FA501 that TG uses. Assuming that's the FA252, is there any difference between a bridged 252 and a non-bridged 501? As you can see from (1) above, I'm deliberately being quite neurotic about wanting to exactly duplicate what TG did and wanting to be certain even small changes would not change performance. Also in this "slavishly following TG" way of thinking, would you be able to specify what changes you made to which passive crossover components so that I could, if I wished, restore the passive crossover to TG's original design?
3. For shipping to my location, around US$1K seems, alas, quite possible, as I imagine, at around 200 lbs. each, they'll have to be crated and palletized—plus that UHF driver perched on top will need special protection, and the shipper will have to clear them through Canadian Customs.
4. I could make do without the 18N682s in your cabs and simply mount the ones I already have. I think I paid more than US$1K for mine—will have to check. But, in principal, the idea of funding the shipping by you keeping the woofers works for me.
5. In conclusion, I am serious about purchasing your TL-1s at the price you have quoted and would appreciate what you call "a real quote" for getting them to Toronto, ON, Canada M6P 4H3. I understand that may take awhile.
Let me know what you think. Regards, JT.