Djim -
Off he top of my head.
YouTube - White Lies - Death (Chase & Status Remix)
YouTube - Bob Marley - Is This Love? (Lojik Dubstep Remix)
If you want a specific type of music I am sure I can have a look.
epa - what tracks. Time of production might account for thar. Old Juno 106 bass lines vs sampled material.
Also - those 4 600 lt cabs aren't out performing the other 2 cabs I posted and are taking up more room.
And it doesn't have to be a TH. I actually thought someone would post a band pass design.
Off he top of my head.
YouTube - White Lies - Death (Chase & Status Remix)
YouTube - Bob Marley - Is This Love? (Lojik Dubstep Remix)
If you want a specific type of music I am sure I can have a look.
epa - what tracks. Time of production might account for thar. Old Juno 106 bass lines vs sampled material.
Also - those 4 600 lt cabs aren't out performing the other 2 cabs I posted and are taking up more room.
And it doesn't have to be a TH. I actually thought someone would post a band pass design.
The Crystal Castles Remix from White Lies is mastered by Glenn Nicholls at Funkvault Mastering in London or by Abbey Roads Mastering. This remix was used for the 2nd release of the track one year after. But as you can see after analysing the whole track, there is no fundamental below 30Hz and at during mastering they used clearly a low-cut filter below 30Hz…
Second example you gave, Bob Marley – Is this Love (Loijk Dubstep Remix) is a very good example of a home-studio production that is not mastered by a professional. Not only there is DC offset in this track there are also Low Frequency pulses from VCO/VCA offsets and fast settings from envelope filters in synths together with bad sample cuts that isn’t taken care off (low-cut filtering). The lowest fundamental NOTE during the track is again above 30Hz but at the end (where the beats stops) you can hear 32th notes from a sample that shortly produces a fundamental of 28Hz. Which means this track doesn’t contain any fundamental noted below 28Hz…
If you want to analyse music its not enough to read graphics from frequency analysers. They don’t give information about the frequencies that you are watching if they are part of the music/effects or part off bad engineered masters. Only therefore everybody should use Low-Cut filtering in their PA's (TH's or not)!
So again, can anyone show me a good example of track that contains fundamental tones <25Hz?
Second example you gave, Bob Marley – Is this Love (Loijk Dubstep Remix) is a very good example of a home-studio production that is not mastered by a professional. Not only there is DC offset in this track there are also Low Frequency pulses from VCO/VCA offsets and fast settings from envelope filters in synths together with bad sample cuts that isn’t taken care off (low-cut filtering). The lowest fundamental NOTE during the track is again above 30Hz but at the end (where the beats stops) you can hear 32th notes from a sample that shortly produces a fundamental of 28Hz. Which means this track doesn’t contain any fundamental noted below 28Hz…
If you want to analyse music its not enough to read graphics from frequency analysers. They don’t give information about the frequencies that you are watching if they are part of the music/effects or part off bad engineered masters. Only therefore everybody should use Low-Cut filtering in their PA's (TH's or not)!
So again, can anyone show me a good example of track that contains fundamental tones <25Hz?
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I can understand what FlipC is doing
If/when dubstep or D&B take off in this country--you really have no idea or the time to pick apart each song rolling onto the local or national charts. If you have a setup to do 20Hz or lower, then throw on a brick wall infrasonic filter it should be fine for many years.
This summers monster dance hit might be a youtube tune which huge demand at the clubs. If I was going to build my last set of PA subs and wanted them to last and be relevant, probably be a good idea to go to 20Hz--at least 25Hz and a filter.
Didn't Enya put out a song that went down to 23 Hz?
If/when dubstep or D&B take off in this country--you really have no idea or the time to pick apart each song rolling onto the local or national charts. If you have a setup to do 20Hz or lower, then throw on a brick wall infrasonic filter it should be fine for many years.
This summers monster dance hit might be a youtube tune which huge demand at the clubs. If I was going to build my last set of PA subs and wanted them to last and be relevant, probably be a good idea to go to 20Hz--at least 25Hz and a filter.
Didn't Enya put out a song that went down to 23 Hz?
Anyone can do whatever he likes but considering all the aspects before... can't hurt does it?
1.) What >125dB at 25Hz or lower signals can do to buildings.
2.) That audience run away simply because they don't experience <26Hz signals as part of the music any longer at these volumes.
3.) For the same weight, volume, power and money you can have at least +3dB at 30Hz!!!
But I do get it if you try to go for 26Hz or 28Hz at -3dB. Then you are able to play anything with serious LF effects without a problem, all fundamental tones (above 30Hz) are possible at max efficiency (above 1/3 wavelenght of the TH design) and the cab stays within "transportable proportions" (if you don't mind carrying the weight).
Besides, it is still able to damage anything without proper construction if wanted.
JTR Speakers| Orbit Shifter LF
JTR makes a horn sub that goes down to 25 Hz. The 80 KG (177 pounds) beast has a 4,000 watt built-in amp and hits 133dB (103dB at 2.83V) Size is 76 x 57 x 104 cm (30 x 22.5 x 45") so the $3,500 beast is an option. Has a 14 Hz high pass filter and the amp tapers the filter between 14 and 25 Hz so if you have a stack of cash--always an option.
JTR makes a horn sub that goes down to 25 Hz. The 80 KG (177 pounds) beast has a 4,000 watt built-in amp and hits 133dB (103dB at 2.83V) Size is 76 x 57 x 104 cm (30 x 22.5 x 45") so the $3,500 beast is an option. Has a 14 Hz high pass filter and the amp tapers the filter between 14 and 25 Hz so if you have a stack of cash--always an option.
hi flipc
here are dubsteps crecendo posted.
i analized them 3 posts later.and some more later in that topic.
note i was pointing out that with v-coupling you can get a lot of extra volume,wich helps the low end
wich model are you refering to, that does more then 135 @ 21 hz with 2?
ill try some bms x-max 19mm later today.
keep at it
here are dubsteps crecendo posted.
i analized them 3 posts later.and some more later in that topic.
note i was pointing out that with v-coupling you can get a lot of extra volume,wich helps the low end
wich model are you refering to, that does more then 135 @ 21 hz with 2?
ill try some bms x-max 19mm later today.
keep at it
somehow i doubt these numbers.
yes maybe it does 25 to 110 +-1 db
yes maybe it does 133db
i don't think the 133 db wil be @ 25 hz.
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Orbit shifter LF Factory specs:
Concept = Traditional Folded Horn
14foot pathlength = 4,27 meter
¼ wavelength = 20Hz
½ wavelength = 40Hz
Mouth area = 4355cm2
Mouth Fc = 160Hz
Output = 133dB at maximum recommended amplification (4000 watt?)
Frequency range = 25Hz -110Hz with +/- 1dB corner loading (1Pi instead of 2Pi)
In free field configuration that means at least 7dB lower at 20Hz (5dB from 1Pi to 2Pi + the +/-1dB difference given by the factory).
So that would mean 126dB for 20Hz, 129dB at 40Hz in free field standing.
With 4000 watts and power compression in mind that looks realistic but I haven't counted in losses by its under dimensioned mouthsize. So it's more reasonable to suspect it will be at least 3dB lower at 20Hz making it 123dB at 20Hz in free field configuration.
This sub is a good example that it is designed for stacks of at least 4 cabs and single cabinets only for corner use.
Concept = Traditional Folded Horn
14foot pathlength = 4,27 meter
¼ wavelength = 20Hz
½ wavelength = 40Hz
Mouth area = 4355cm2
Mouth Fc = 160Hz
Output = 133dB at maximum recommended amplification (4000 watt?)
Frequency range = 25Hz -110Hz with +/- 1dB corner loading (1Pi instead of 2Pi)
In free field configuration that means at least 7dB lower at 20Hz (5dB from 1Pi to 2Pi + the +/-1dB difference given by the factory).
So that would mean 126dB for 20Hz, 129dB at 40Hz in free field standing.
With 4000 watts and power compression in mind that looks realistic but I haven't counted in losses by its under dimensioned mouthsize. So it's more reasonable to suspect it will be at least 3dB lower at 20Hz making it 123dB at 20Hz in free field configuration.
This sub is a good example that it is designed for stacks of at least 4 cabs and single cabinets only for corner use.
In addition to what you noted, the Orbit shifter has a small compression chamber, subject to dynamic compression with large signal levels at low frequencies.
In side by side testing of the JTR Growler, (the Orbit shifter's "little brother") rated at 100 dB, it is equal in sensitivity to a JBL SRX 718, rated at 95 dB.
I also suspect the Orbit shifter may be rated a bit high.
When one looks at actual SPL below 30 Hz, when not corner loaded, the hard facts of huge power, huge cabinets (or lots of smaller cabinets) and big $ prevail.
Art Welter
My point is infra bass...
purely for the fact that I AM AN ADDICT. Simple as that.
As far as fundamentals in tracks.
I do not look at tracks via an analyzer. Nor never heard the CC track you mention.
I am sure people like Magic Mike or others will surely give you what your looking for.
A 5 string bass is 31 Hz. And you are saying NO producer puts in lower material than that? ( Can an electronic sine sweep even have a fundamental? )All I can attest to at this moment is that there is a difference between my PA ( 140 DB down to 33 Hz. I use a 24DV LR HPF. Cause at 30 Hz the excursion goes straight up.) and my LAb12 reflex cabinets (22 hz). There is musical material below that 33 Hz.
Back in the 90's I built some 18" reflex cabs that were sub sonic.
McCualey 6184's They were used in a 5 way system. 6 cabinets. 1600 watts for each. 30-21 Hz (cross over didnt allow to go lower) Of course they were just fans until you got about 15 feet away. 60 feet away ... you didnt want to sit around. Couldn't see straight. They were big and heavy. 250 lbs each. If I recall 95db at 25 hz. Also costly.
epa - your pic says a group of 4. That is 2400 lt's of space PLUS the extension.
The Th221 is 1600 lt and the 600 Lt TH21 does that in set of 3 roughly. (post 33)
Again. I honestly thought someone would have posted some crazy band pass design.
purely for the fact that I AM AN ADDICT. Simple as that.
As far as fundamentals in tracks.
I do not look at tracks via an analyzer. Nor never heard the CC track you mention.
I am sure people like Magic Mike or others will surely give you what your looking for.
A 5 string bass is 31 Hz. And you are saying NO producer puts in lower material than that? ( Can an electronic sine sweep even have a fundamental? )All I can attest to at this moment is that there is a difference between my PA ( 140 DB down to 33 Hz. I use a 24DV LR HPF. Cause at 30 Hz the excursion goes straight up.) and my LAb12 reflex cabinets (22 hz). There is musical material below that 33 Hz.
Back in the 90's I built some 18" reflex cabs that were sub sonic.
McCualey 6184's They were used in a 5 way system. 6 cabinets. 1600 watts for each. 30-21 Hz (cross over didnt allow to go lower) Of course they were just fans until you got about 15 feet away. 60 feet away ... you didnt want to sit around. Couldn't see straight. They were big and heavy. 250 lbs each. If I recall 95db at 25 hz. Also costly.
epa - your pic says a group of 4. That is 2400 lt's of space PLUS the extension.
The Th221 is 1600 lt and the 600 Lt TH21 does that in set of 3 roughly. (post 33)
Again. I honestly thought someone would have posted some crazy band pass design.
The addiction is understood Flip, then once you quit doing the PA thing--what to do with the bass bins? I did the isobaric/passive radiator thing for a HT sub but miss the punch of high sensitivity monster cabs.
There is a thread going on about 3 chamber bandpass subs--not my thing but Patrick is at the point of mixing a tapped horn and a bandpass together.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/186855-post-your-triple-reflex-bandpass-designs-2.html
I always wondered if you need a sub to do 15 to 30 Hz for example, could a passive radiator bandpass do it? The PR would take the place of the huge ports, make the box much smaller and much, much easier to tune.
Exodus Audio has 18" PRs with 3" peak to peak stroke (I own one) maybe two of those in a bandpass would provide enough SPL? I have no idea, just an odd ball design that might work? It will give the drunk kids something to watch since cone stroke fascinates the car audio crowd.
There is a thread going on about 3 chamber bandpass subs--not my thing but Patrick is at the point of mixing a tapped horn and a bandpass together.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/186855-post-your-triple-reflex-bandpass-designs-2.html
I always wondered if you need a sub to do 15 to 30 Hz for example, could a passive radiator bandpass do it? The PR would take the place of the huge ports, make the box much smaller and much, much easier to tune.
Exodus Audio has 18" PRs with 3" peak to peak stroke (I own one) maybe two of those in a bandpass would provide enough SPL? I have no idea, just an odd ball design that might work? It will give the drunk kids something to watch since cone stroke fascinates the car audio crowd.
Hi 18Hurts,
"...Patrick is at the point of mixing a tapped horn and a bandpass together... Post Your Triple Reflex Bandpass Designs..."
Maybe weltersys has already done that with his keystone designs:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
It's kind of hard to tell as he is not providing enough data (or drawings) on the keystone section of his tapped horn (or the rest of his design).
Regards,
"...Patrick is at the point of mixing a tapped horn and a bandpass together... Post Your Triple Reflex Bandpass Designs..."
Maybe weltersys has already done that with his keystone designs:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
It's kind of hard to tell as he is not providing enough data (or drawings) on the keystone section of his tapped horn (or the rest of his design).
Regards,
You gave the names of the tracks… Btw I do look at analysers for a living.
Nope, didn't say that. I said there is no music material with real TONES below 25Hz. A mastering engineer is another job/specialisation from producer. A producer records material, master engineers correct/finalise the producers material to optimize it for reproduction. Like cutting off unwanted LF from home-studio productions that have no monitors that are able to produce significant energy below 30Hz nor does their acoustic environment of their home studios.
There is even a lot of music material below 30Hz. It’s just that tones below 26Hz are a waist of energy for dance oriented music. That’s why I suggested to go for -3dB at 26Hz, gives you +/- 1dB from 30Hz where 99,9% of all tracks start to show their important tones.
Going infra is very understandable going futher then music material operates is just a waist of effort, efficiency, volume, wood and money...
flip, are you jonesin' for something like this??? 8 would get you over 140db@25hz.
It's not crazy or anything, but does hit your stated goals.
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The difference between your 'standard' PA subs which you need to high pass at 40 to something that actually does 26 effortlessly at the same SPLs is phenomenal. And if you ever heard/experienced it it may change your perception of what is needed or wanted. A full stack (8) lab horns is only -3 at 26 (not 20) and it will knock you on your ***. Personally, I see no need to go lower, and I am an addict. On the other side of things, once you get spoiled, 40 Hz won't be good enough anymore.
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