We are getting all wrapped around the axle here. Marks's instructions boil down to -- Don't run rap or heavy metal at concert levels until the drivers are broken-in. My break-in my Alpair's on the HT running TV shows at normal volume. The bass is cut at 150Hz to the sub. If you don't want to do this, run your new drivers at normal background levels for a while then at normal listening level. Avoid anything with strong percussive bass for a while. It's that simple.
Bob
Bob
Ah, but there must always be a few who are obsessed with defying common sense, do their own thing, live outside the box, etc.
And then there are those who just plain dense. Like the guy one of the Polk Audio execs told us about: he bought basically bottom of the line Polk speakers & couldn't understand why the speakers kept failing & needing warranty replacement; seems he put the speakers on his porch so he could listen to music while cutting fire wood with a chain saw.
Cheers, Jim
And then there are those who just plain dense. Like the guy one of the Polk Audio execs told us about: he bought basically bottom of the line Polk speakers & couldn't understand why the speakers kept failing & needing warranty replacement; seems he put the speakers on his porch so he could listen to music while cutting fire wood with a chain saw.
Cheers, Jim
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Essentially what I was doing, i.e. not much different than running background 'noise' - hence why I haven't watched tv for 15yrs
Sorry but this doesn't explain why break in is needed. What does it do? What is it good for? What changes does the driver undergo during break in?
If Markaudio drivers need special care and if they behave different than any other driver then I would expect the manufacturer to explain this to the user in some kind of manual. Probably more effective than having the user to search for that information after they already might have damaged their speakers. Or maybe the whole issue is just hyperbole and Markaudio drivers don't behave different from any other driver in the first place. Maybe they are just more fragile than most?
I rather suspect Mark is less-than-interested in your expectations. As noted, the run-in requirements are clearly stated on the spec. sheets for all to see. If people don't read or follow them, that's their problem. For the rest, the forum's convenient search facility will indicate previous posts giving answers to your queries.
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I think we are dealing with a level of apprehensiveness, because of Mark having gone ballistic when asked similar questions in the past.
Mark has a very understandable fear of him, being a small manufacturer, getting done in by rumors, hearsay and FUD.
But I also think that it is understandable that the potential users and current customers are curious about what's makes his drivers special.
Break in for a 100 hours is quite a big thing to ask people for.
There is the possibility that it is quite true, and that the spiders actually do benefit from very gentle massaging.
Or there is the other possibility that it is a psychological trick to get people to think about and care for the drivers.
It is not my experience that Marks drivers are especially fragile in any way. On the contrary they are very well constructed.
I would not expect Mark to dish out the answer though, because either way it would be a trade secret.
Mark has a very understandable fear of him, being a small manufacturer, getting done in by rumors, hearsay and FUD.
But I also think that it is understandable that the potential users and current customers are curious about what's makes his drivers special.
Break in for a 100 hours is quite a big thing to ask people for.
There is the possibility that it is quite true, and that the spiders actually do benefit from very gentle massaging.
Or there is the other possibility that it is a psychological trick to get people to think about and care for the drivers.
It is not my experience that Marks drivers are especially fragile in any way. On the contrary they are very well constructed.
I would not expect Mark to dish out the answer though, because either way it would be a trade secret.
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Why? If break in is a requirement for Markaudio drivers then there's absolutely no reason to go "ballistic".
Which makes it all the more important to explain "break in".
If there's a reason to break in for 100 hours and the drivers do undergo a mechanical change in order to reach full specs then it is what it is. The customers can decide themselves if they are willing to do it or not. But I still don't know/couldn't find an answer what break in is good for in the first place.
This is a well known effect. Toole writes about it in his book "Sound Reproduction". But I don't think Markaudio uses such trickery. Mark seems to be very proud of his designs so I think there's a technical reason why he recommends a break in procedure. He just doesn't clearly communicate why.
I also think they are well constructed but that doesn't mean they are not fragile. For example I broke the plastic surround on an Alpair 7.3. Something that has never happened to me with any other driver.
If the mechanical properties of the driver change during break in this hardly can be a trade secret.
It could be a trade secret because he would have to explain exactly how his spiders are special.
On the other hand if it is a trick, explaining would break the magic.
The thing with your broken frame, I think is exactly what Mark fears. There will always, no matter how careful you are be manufacturing defects. And plastic is per default more brittle than metal but then it has better sonic characteristics.
One in maybe 10,000 instances like yours will get blown out of proportion on a forum like this because all the other thousands of satisfied customers won't post that their drivers aren't broken. Also we can't be sure how much you tightened your screws, or if your frame cut out was uneven.
I too would be interested to hear how the break-in works, but I don't think we are going to hear it from the horses mouth.
On the other hand if it is a trick, explaining would break the magic.
The thing with your broken frame, I think is exactly what Mark fears. There will always, no matter how careful you are be manufacturing defects. And plastic is per default more brittle than metal but then it has better sonic characteristics.
One in maybe 10,000 instances like yours will get blown out of proportion on a forum like this because all the other thousands of satisfied customers won't post that their drivers aren't broken. Also we can't be sure how much you tightened your screws, or if your frame cut out was uneven.
I too would be interested to hear how the break-in works, but I don't think we are going to hear it from the horses mouth.
Spekr,
IIRC Mark has communicated (discussion of multiple posts) that MA drivers are unique in some ways and that necessitates the use of certain custom components and assemblies...
How are they "unique"? If I may attempt to summarize Mark's comments:
- MA drivers are capable of wide-band performance - extended HF performance w/o whizzer cone + phase plug, and also have relatively higher excursion capability (up to 8mm one-way excursion for larger models?) for better LF performance in a variety of boxes (including modestly sized enclosures). The higher excursion also makes it possible for the drivers to provide some extra LF when the music demands it e.g. thump of large bass drum, but the powertrains are not designed for sustained high excursion usage like continuous bass heavy music at loud levels - and Mark makes no secret about that. The "arrestors" he has subsequently added to his drivers also safeguard against over driving.
- Many FR drivers have 1-2mm Xmax - they have wide-band response capability but lack excursion capability to produce LF performance, specially in smaller boxes.
- On the other hand, most high excursion drivers (woofers, sub-woofers) have much more robust assemblies but do not have wide-band response.
Mark states that it is ideal that his drivers are subjected to an extended periods of variable loads in the break-in period to get the best out of them. As components and assembly is custom to MA, they will not match the recommendations or requirements for other drivers. There is also some discussion on the effects on the cone surface - more details here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/248199-driver-break-questions.html
IIRC Mark has communicated (discussion of multiple posts) that MA drivers are unique in some ways and that necessitates the use of certain custom components and assemblies...
How are they "unique"? If I may attempt to summarize Mark's comments:
- MA drivers are capable of wide-band performance - extended HF performance w/o whizzer cone + phase plug, and also have relatively higher excursion capability (up to 8mm one-way excursion for larger models?) for better LF performance in a variety of boxes (including modestly sized enclosures). The higher excursion also makes it possible for the drivers to provide some extra LF when the music demands it e.g. thump of large bass drum, but the powertrains are not designed for sustained high excursion usage like continuous bass heavy music at loud levels - and Mark makes no secret about that. The "arrestors" he has subsequently added to his drivers also safeguard against over driving.
- Many FR drivers have 1-2mm Xmax - they have wide-band response capability but lack excursion capability to produce LF performance, specially in smaller boxes.
- On the other hand, most high excursion drivers (woofers, sub-woofers) have much more robust assemblies but do not have wide-band response.
Mark states that it is ideal that his drivers are subjected to an extended periods of variable loads in the break-in period to get the best out of them. As components and assembly is custom to MA, they will not match the recommendations or requirements for other drivers. There is also some discussion on the effects on the cone surface - more details here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/248199-driver-break-questions.html
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Thanks for the link zman01. There's some interesting information in post #13.
"single tone signal signals this risks creating a memory patten in the outer 7 to 10 micron cone substrate"
After break in such "memory pattern" can't develop anymore? What exactly is a "memory pattern"? Is it some kind of structural damage to the cone? Is the cone material critical? In what way does the "memory pattern" change the driver performance? Is it reversible?
"From 300 hours out, the driver's power-train will enter its optimal load phase on its suspensions"
What is an "optimal load phase" and what mechanical changes cause it?
"single tone signal signals this risks creating a memory patten in the outer 7 to 10 micron cone substrate"
After break in such "memory pattern" can't develop anymore? What exactly is a "memory pattern"? Is it some kind of structural damage to the cone? Is the cone material critical? In what way does the "memory pattern" change the driver performance? Is it reversible?
"From 300 hours out, the driver's power-train will enter its optimal load phase on its suspensions"
What is an "optimal load phase" and what mechanical changes cause it?
Could that "memory pattern" be shape memory? Perhaps the cone profile may be altered and affects the driver performance? If that were the case it's not only after "break in" that such effect cannot be developed, but more like "you should stay away from single tones.
By "optimal load phase" I presume it means the compliance of the suspension will reach its designed working condition?
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I've run into the same issue - the terminology used by Mark in answering some questions leaves me none the wiser and I have never felt comfortable pushing for more. The bottom line is, I'm completely unfamiliar with speaker design and all the technical terms used, so I need somebody who can bridge the gap between the Mark (the guru) and me (the pleb) and explain things in a way that they make sense without expecting Mark to do it for me (amazing how much time we get from him as it is).
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Hey Bigun, I think that's a bit misleading. In the long run it's not that important to the topic, just an unusual statement. In-ground basement, half basement and slab on grade are all common in my parts.
Aw snap!
You called?
FWIW Big', guys, I don't think all of Mark's terminology is necessarily coming out of audio design. He's a mechanical engineer with a lengthy background in wider industry so his approach both in describing and, evidently, designing, comes from that perspective. That's likely where you get terms like 'powertrain' (i.e. the moving components driven by the magnet) 'emittance xyz' which aren't always of the sort end-users regularly encounter / popular 'audio-terminology', but are technically somewhat more accurate in the context they are employed in. YMMV.
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