Hi Bas,
Sure. When I started on this "Low gain LM38XX Chipamp" thing I would have been happy to only get the same sound. But for some reason it seems to also sound better anyway...
So guys, get the electronics books out and work it out for yourselves, it is worth it.
Ciao T
You can get almost any circuit stable with gains below 10, if you know where and how to compensate. Doesn't say that it does sound better/good
Sure. When I started on this "Low gain LM38XX Chipamp" thing I would have been happy to only get the same sound. But for some reason it seems to also sound better anyway...
So guys, get the electronics books out and work it out for yourselves, it is worth it.
Ciao T
If you search in ebay for lm3886 you will find 2 kinds of board that has space for 3 x lm3886 in parallel. In hindsight i should have bought the bare boards of the amp you used. Mine has a piece of pc board behind chips that HAS to go underneath heat sink. Yours you can bolt down flat like you did.
I bought mine unpopulated. Yours is available unpopulated too.
I don't have Thorsten's fear of copycats, so here's a tip.
Google (feeling lucky) for AN-1604.
Shiit! Now I own you a beer!I don't have Thorsten's fear of copycats, so here's a tip.
Thank you very much. I am not going to develop anything, but have some kind of student curiosity for something that I thought was impossible to achieve.
Regards,
Regi
Good - I hope its a QingDao dark
Yeah its one of those secrets 'hidden in plain sight'. I was first introduced to it many years ago in Thomas M. Frederiksen's Intuitive IC opamps, a book I most highly recommend. I'm always wanting to reduce the gain of my chipamps, so I'm encouraged by Thorsten's mention that lower gain ones sound better.
Hi,
I did not know this App Note, it is a very good summary of the whole subject, including well worked out examples.
And I am happy for everyone to calculate their own stuff, then work a layout that does not cause extra problems and then find that whole darn thing still oscillates and then fix the oscillation.
I just do not like to put a schematic up here and find the PCB's on e0bay the next month, with no royalties or even acknowledgement. So those guys should calaculate their sh!t and design it. Given that most are completely incapable of doing so means my stuff is perfectly safe from them.
Ciao T
I don't have Thorsten's fear of copycats, so here's a tip.
I did not know this App Note, it is a very good summary of the whole subject, including well worked out examples.
And I am happy for everyone to calculate their own stuff, then work a layout that does not cause extra problems and then find that whole darn thing still oscillates and then fix the oscillation.
I just do not like to put a schematic up here and find the PCB's on e0bay the next month, with no royalties or even acknowledgement. So those guys should calaculate their sh!t and design it. Given that most are completely incapable of doing so means my stuff is perfectly safe from them.
Ciao T
Ah, this just brings to light the different thinking styles between East and West. Over here, imitation is a form of paying respect; words are an irrelevance when actions are doing the speaking.
Hi,
I would agree if the imitation was done due to having gained an understanding and then applied it. This indeed is respect.
Just taking what you do not understand from someone else and copying it for gain is not considered respectful even in China, though it is often considered good business sense.
The first I do not mind, the second I mind very much. And you are right, it is the actions that speak in these cases.
Ciao T
I would agree if the imitation was done due to having gained an understanding and then applied it. This indeed is respect.
Just taking what you do not understand from someone else and copying it for gain is not considered respectful even in China, though it is often considered good business sense.
The first I do not mind, the second I mind very much. And you are right, it is the actions that speak in these cases.
Ciao T
Yep, they'd doubtless differ on that. Understanding is only gained by doing, interacting, not merely by hearing - I think that comes from Confucius.
Do you have examples? The students I've had the pleasure of teaching in the ways of the Western world seem to have no sense that plagiarism is somehow disrespectful - that's a totally Western meme in my estimation.
Where is the loss to you if some others gain (not merely the copier but also the purchasers) by means of your designs?
Hi,
My point precisely. The Student who diligently copies the words of the Sifu of the page has copied the words. He will never become a Sifu in his own right.
The student who did not copy the words, but the Sifu's actions and ways has the potential to become greater than his Sifu.
Perhaps. I probably misunderstand them all.
Perhaps, if I took something that a chinese person had spend a lot of time and effort on, they would not mind me just taking it, without offering a fair price, without asking. Perhaps they would consider this just cool and not mind at all?
My own experiences during travels in china seem to counter-indicate that. I had in fact on a fair few occasions people very much poorer than me, being very protective of my possessions (of course, it had to do with saving face as well). This to me indicates that the concept of property and propriety is well understood, better than it is in the west, given my personal experiences there.
Perhaps not everyone fully extends this into the intellectual realm, but again, I suspect enough do. The amount of products in China that carry "anti counterfit" stickers and devices seem at least the IP holders like to take a very western view of things.
If I took a book published in China and re-published it via my own platform for financial gain, would the chinese authors be pleased of my actions? Or even if I made them available without financial gain, would they? Surely they would love me sharing their works without compensating them in any way?
Good question. There are reasons for "intellectual property". There are people who are often more inspired than others. As long as we have not a perfect communist, or anarchist society, where all receive a fair share of the societies wealth for offering their best, incentives are needed. The concept of intellectual property rights seeks to ensure such incentives exist.
I also greatly respect the concept of "open source", however the kind of behaviour I criticise is not covered even under the concept of "open source".
The loss is in the long run and all pay.
People like Nelson "Baba" Pass are very much curtailing how much they share nowadays (I do as well). Because they feel that those who take what is not theirs and sell it for gain are in the literal sense of the word "stealing".
Those who steal what they lack understanding produce vastly inferior products and so the customer receives not what he or she expects and has paid for.
I encountered a number of cases where those exact customers, having found the merchandise wanting requested me to help bail them out, as those who took their money where neither able or willing to do so.
So, in reality, everyone looses, except those who took what was not theirs to take.
Based of what I have seen happening to thiefs on the Beijing Metro, thiefs are not considered honorable in china.
But again, what do I know, having only visited on occasion?
Ciao T
My point precisely. The Student who diligently copies the words of the Sifu of the page has copied the words. He will never become a Sifu in his own right.
The student who did not copy the words, but the Sifu's actions and ways has the potential to become greater than his Sifu.
Perhaps. I probably misunderstand them all.
Perhaps, if I took something that a chinese person had spend a lot of time and effort on, they would not mind me just taking it, without offering a fair price, without asking. Perhaps they would consider this just cool and not mind at all?
My own experiences during travels in china seem to counter-indicate that. I had in fact on a fair few occasions people very much poorer than me, being very protective of my possessions (of course, it had to do with saving face as well). This to me indicates that the concept of property and propriety is well understood, better than it is in the west, given my personal experiences there.
Perhaps not everyone fully extends this into the intellectual realm, but again, I suspect enough do. The amount of products in China that carry "anti counterfit" stickers and devices seem at least the IP holders like to take a very western view of things.
If I took a book published in China and re-published it via my own platform for financial gain, would the chinese authors be pleased of my actions? Or even if I made them available without financial gain, would they? Surely they would love me sharing their works without compensating them in any way?
Good question. There are reasons for "intellectual property". There are people who are often more inspired than others. As long as we have not a perfect communist, or anarchist society, where all receive a fair share of the societies wealth for offering their best, incentives are needed. The concept of intellectual property rights seeks to ensure such incentives exist.
I also greatly respect the concept of "open source", however the kind of behaviour I criticise is not covered even under the concept of "open source".
The loss is in the long run and all pay.
People like Nelson "Baba" Pass are very much curtailing how much they share nowadays (I do as well). Because they feel that those who take what is not theirs and sell it for gain are in the literal sense of the word "stealing".
Those who steal what they lack understanding produce vastly inferior products and so the customer receives not what he or she expects and has paid for.
I encountered a number of cases where those exact customers, having found the merchandise wanting requested me to help bail them out, as those who took their money where neither able or willing to do so.
So, in reality, everyone looses, except those who took what was not theirs to take.
Based of what I have seen happening to thiefs on the Beijing Metro, thiefs are not considered honorable in china.
But again, what do I know, having only visited on occasion?
Ciao T
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Right. So given that in the realm of audio design, they consider you to be the Sifu, they really have no hope of becoming greater than you unless you enroll them as your disciples. You merely need to smile sweetly and knowingly at their cute attempts to become great merely by copying your designs and point out that your greatness arises from your creative originality. Yet all disciples begin by copying the Sifu - until they know better.
No - they, like me, and the courts (AFAIK) would consider this theft. So its a red herring, a smokescreen.
I concur - the concept of property is well understood. I'm not sure what you mean here by propriety though. Care to expand on that?
There is no such 'extension' - the intellectual realm is clearly different from the physical realm. The map is not the territory.
I've never seen one of those stickers. But it could be they're there and written in Chinese so I've never twigged their meaning. Just like practically all their CDs say 'HDCD' on them and many say 'SACD' too - they love the logos, the buzzwords.
My guess is they'd be flattered. But this is only a guess. Why not try it and see? Would you publish in Chinese or get it translated first? I think you'd find it hard to realise financial gain, given the low prices of books in China. If your version became popular, someone here would see an opportunity and begin exporting the original.
I'm not following your point.
Incentives for what though? For writing or designing? Myself, I design circuits not from the 'profit motive' but rather for fun. According to Maslow's hierarchy people's motivations aren't really for profit beyond level2.
Well I'm writing this post on Ubuntu. That's given away without thought of financial gain - Mark Shuttleworth is a philanthropist - I guess he feels he already has enough 'financial gain' from his former business interests. So clearly the 'profit motive' isn't why he's in the game.
That's a claim - where's the evidence for it?
Then if that's really what you and "Baba" feel, your feelings do not correspond with reality. Look again and see if you can see how intellectual 'property' is not property at all. How copying is by no means stealing.
They do not steal, they copy. But I agree that without understanding, they see a burgundy coloured, gold embossed capacitor in your designs and make sure they include a burgundy coloured, gold embossed capacitor in their copy. The fact that the gold embossed words are mis-spelled breaks the spell of course.
A great opportunity to teach them 'caveat emptor' and sell them your own product I'd say. Be grateful for the additional sales. Those guys just inadvertently referred you customers and you diss them? Crazy business mind you have
Quite ironic that this 'everyone loses' mantra is your own fantasy with no basis in reality
Hi,
Really, they are on pretty much everything. Holographic stickers with hotline numbers and individual serial numbers that you can confirm with the hotline your bottle of greatwall wine or your mosquito repellent is the genuinearticle.
Google did this and they where NOT flattered, actually. So I do not have to try and see at all.
Surely more persons than Mark Shuttleworth contribute to Ubuntu. In fact, is Ubuntu not mainly a repackaging of the Debian Linxux Distro?
And doesn't Canonical make it's profits by charging for Ubuntu support?
I probably got it all wrong though, I gave up on Linux ages ago.
That seems less clear-cut according to some than according to you.
Giving away something free (or substantially under-priced) and making money on the required support and/or supplies is a well understood business model.
It seems you wish to view reality through an extreme set of filters.
In an ideal we would all share everything and everything would be hence "free".
In the real world this is not implementable.
Ciao T
Really, they are on pretty much everything. Holographic stickers with hotline numbers and individual serial numbers that you can confirm with the hotline your bottle of greatwall wine or your mosquito repellent is the genuinearticle.
Google did this and they where NOT flattered, actually. So I do not have to try and see at all.
Surely more persons than Mark Shuttleworth contribute to Ubuntu. In fact, is Ubuntu not mainly a repackaging of the Debian Linxux Distro?
And doesn't Canonical make it's profits by charging for Ubuntu support?
I probably got it all wrong though, I gave up on Linux ages ago.
That seems less clear-cut according to some than according to you.
Giving away something free (or substantially under-priced) and making money on the required support and/or supplies is a well understood business model.
It seems you wish to view reality through an extreme set of filters.
In an ideal we would all share everything and everything would be hence "free".
In the real world this is not implementable.
Ciao T
The parallel between Google and publishing a Chinese book outside China is lost on me, I can't see what you're getting at.
Well yeah, I guess Mr Shuttleworth pays their salaries. What's the relevance of it being a repackaging of Debian btw? Looks like a side-issue to me.
I wasn't aware that Canonical was profitable. But I would expect them to charge for services - services are not 'intellectual property' which is what this discussion was originally about.
No disagreement there.
More irony. It wasn't me who was claiming that there was little or no difference between copying and stealing - that's an extreme filter to view reality through from my 'extreme' position.
The world is already ideal and I do not see that happening. So please show your reasoning, I might be able to point out the flaws in it.
Oh the ironies don't stop coming
Hi,
There was recently a major kafuffle about Google Books having scanned and made available on-line large numbers of chinese language books without permission from the chinese copyright holders. Maybe it was not widely reported and so you missed it?
BTW, musiland also where less than pleased when others copied them and basically made their driver render the copies (and their own units - which users had to laboriously re-activate) unusable after upgrading the Driver.
It seemed the chinese have a very good concept of IP when they are the holders of said.
But in the end you are the expert on China and I only get the occasional look in and hear the occasional stories. So I'm sure you know better and maybe the chinese really do feel that counterfitting, copying etc. are honorable ways of doing things.
Ciao T
There was recently a major kafuffle about Google Books having scanned and made available on-line large numbers of chinese language books without permission from the chinese copyright holders. Maybe it was not widely reported and so you missed it?
BTW, musiland also where less than pleased when others copied them and basically made their driver render the copies (and their own units - which users had to laboriously re-activate) unusable after upgrading the Driver.
It seemed the chinese have a very good concept of IP when they are the holders of said.
But in the end you are the expert on China and I only get the occasional look in and hear the occasional stories. So I'm sure you know better and maybe the chinese really do feel that counterfitting, copying etc. are honorable ways of doing things.
Ciao T
Certainly I hadn't heard of it. But now you've highlighted it, I will see what I can dig up.
Well that's also news to me - thanks for the heads up. I guess a company like Musiland is trying hard to do business the western way.
In those two examples you've raised yes, but the whole notion of IP is imported from the West as far as I can see. I myself wouldn't generalise from those two cases - you're welcome to though.
Your sarcasm is wasted on me.
They most certainly do feel that copying isn't stealing and a legitimate way of doing business. You're still of the view that copying is practically indistinguishable from stealing then?
Andrew,
Agreed.
May suggest moving the "Unity Gainclone" posts into the relevant thread from 2003 (which recently came back from the dead).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/9852-gainclone-no-gain-yes-pain.html
And move the IP discussion to whatever is the local off topic forum?
Ciao T
Agreed.
May suggest moving the "Unity Gainclone" posts into the relevant thread from 2003 (which recently came back from the dead).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/9852-gainclone-no-gain-yes-pain.html
And move the IP discussion to whatever is the local off topic forum?
Ciao T