Celestion 66 needs mid-range

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use as follows:-

Hello again Alan - got my Solen poly caps from Falcon, measured as follows: 70.1, 70.34, 70.43 and 70.7 uF. They are BIG - 65mm long and 50mm diameter, but they'll fit my boards ok.

Also added some more soft furnishings to the room, and can reduce the mid attenution quite a lot now. Won't post figures until I've experimented again after fitting the new bass caps.

Stuart

Hello Stuart,

If you want to get as close as possible to a matched pair of 66s in the low midrange measure the DC resistance of both woofers, then:-

With the lower resistance woofer put the 70.34uF as the cap at the output of the filter, and the 70.7uF as the cap in between the inductors.

With the higher resistance woofer put the 70.1uF cap in the output position and the 70.43uF in the between inductors position.

Yes, with such small uF differences this is being a bit obsessive, but I do that, and you may hear the benefit ... hopefully the woofers will have similarly small differences in ohms.

Listen for several sessions, then post your impressions of whatever changes these caps have made to the sound, and then the two resistance measurements within each L-pad.
 
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ESR Resistor Locations?

This is truly an informative post, I’ve spent the last few days reading through its entirety. Being totally new to all this, it has been quite the task trying to grasp all the information being posted.
My Celestions were purchased new by me in 1980 or so and have been a great sounding speaker in my view over the years. Although, as of late they seem to be lacking and given their age, are probably in need of a refurbish/update to the crossovers. All drivers appear to be OK and in good working order.
My crossovers are the PCB versions, so my plan to update is as follows…

Replace caps with Solen 250v PA series as outlined…
C1, C2 = 6.2uF
C3, C4 = 3.9uF
C5 = 3.9uF
C6 = 2*36uF for 72uF
C7 = 24uF
C8 = 2*36uF for 72uF
May consider a 68uF @ C6 and 75uF @ C8 ??

ESR Resistors, Mills MRA-5 as outlined…
C1, C2 – 6.2uF = 0.5R
C5 – 3.9uF = 3.3R
C6 – 72uF = 1.5R
C7 – 24uF = 1.5R
C8 – 72uF = 1.0R

What I do not totally understand and has me puzzled, is how and where to physically place the ESR resistors, given the compactness of the PCB crossover layout.
Eg. For the 2*36uF caps at C8, I need to raise them above the 2 inductors, using the caps legs to support themselves. So how should the 1.0R be placed; as part of the leg supporting the caps and will it be stout enough to support the caps over the inductors?
As I stated, I’m new to all of this, so any help, explanation would be greatly appreciated. If anyone with the PCB version crossovers, has some pics they could post of their updated crossovers, that would be awesome.

Thanks, Dave
 
Seas Tweeter

Continuing from my Post # 409:-

The SEAS tweeter I listed also in a couple of posts will be better sound than the HF2000 and the Coles, and what I recommend to use at reasonable price - and that is better value than buying old HF2000s from ebay sellers !

The SEAS will require a parallel connected resistor to match its Impedance to the crossover, and a slightly larger capacitance for the output cap of the treble filter in the crossover instead of the 6uF or 6.2uf in the originals.
6.8uF may be sufficient, but I would listen first with 8.2uF.
I will explain the reason for the larger capacitance if anyone decides on this option.
.

Alan, don't know if you're still watching this thread, it's been awhile since any activity, but I'll ask anyhow.

I'm considering replacing my HF2000 tweeters with the Seas H0737 19TFF1 tweeters, could you explain the reason for the cap change?
Also, what resistors would you recommend?

My 66s are the PCB versions.

Thanks Dave
 
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Md500

Doug,

the best option would be to buy a pair of as-new MD500 domes from tonedef2, and keep your OK sounding MD500 as a spare.

MF500 seems to have a different Impedance characteristic at its low frequency end than MD500, and is not as cleverly controlled in design.
This will be part of the reason for its lower power handling, as well as the heat capacity of its voice-coil.

If the MF500s are in good condition they can be got to work, and better with another resistor added to the crossover, but I would use MD500.
Consider the price you are asked for a pair of MD500.
Don't pay a lot for MF500 - they are old and condition and life expectancy is not known.

Picked up 2 used MD500's today. A 2 hr drive one way, vs shipping. Left my low vol 500 with the person I bought the *good* ones from. He has a friend who is a Tannoy *expert* ,who he might get to have a look at. Both 66's are singing again!!!! Been so long without that second mid, when it fired up I was almost sscared! Sounding good after 3 hrs of music coming from star choice. (blues channel)
 
This is truly an informative post, I’ve spent the last few days reading through its entirety. Being totally new to all this, it has been quite the task trying to grasp all the information being posted.
My Celestions were purchased new by me in 1980 or so and have been a great sounding speaker in my view over the years. Although, as of late they seem to be lacking and given their age, are probably in need of a refurbish/update to the crossovers. All drivers appear to be OK and in good working order.
My crossovers are the PCB versions, so my plan to update is as follows…

Replace caps with Solen 250v PA series as outlined…
C1, C2 = 6.2uF
C3, C4 = 3.9uF
C5 = 3.9uF
C6 = 2*36uF for 72uF
C7 = 24uF
C8 = 2*36uF for 72uF
May consider a 68uF @ C6 and 75uF @ C8 ??

ESR Resistors, Mills MRA-5 as outlined…
C1, C2 – 6.2uF = 0.5R
C5 – 3.9uF = 3.3R
C6 – 72uF = 1.5R
C7 – 24uF = 1.5R
C8 – 72uF = 1.0R

What I do not totally understand and has me puzzled, is how and where to physically place the ESR resistors, given the compactness of the PCB crossover layout.
Eg. For the 2*36uF caps at C8, I need to raise them above the 2 inductors, using the caps legs to support themselves. So how should the 1.0R be placed; as part of the leg supporting the caps and will it be stout enough to support the caps over the inductors?
As I stated, I’m new to all of this, so any help, explanation would be greatly appreciated. If anyone with the PCB version crossovers, has some pics they could post of their updated crossovers, that would be awesome.

Thanks, Dave


Believe I threw out all the files of the components I used to update my PCB boards, unless they are listed in this forum. I will borrow a digital cam & take some pics of how I mounted everything & post for you as soon as I can. I am an old timer & still shoot pics using film. :rolleyes:
 
worth the patience !

Picked up 2 used MD500's today. A 2 hr drive one way, vs shipping. Left my low vol 500 with the person I bought the *good* ones from. He has a friend who is a Tannoy *expert* ,who he might get to have a look at. Both 66's are singing again!!!! Been so long without that second mid, when it fired up I was almost sscared! Sounding good after 3 hrs of music coming from star choice. (blues channel)

Hi Doug,

I'm very pleased to read that you have a pair of working MD500.
Indeed it is worth the effort required to persevere to get the best result possible.

Post later and tell us what the Tannoy "expert" found in your low output MD500.

***********************************************************

There is a way to adapt the 66 crossover for the current Morel EM 1308 mid-dome to work
- if readers cannot find working MD500s at reasonable prices -
but that will include spending a bit of time listening and fine-tuning by changing 1 resistor at least, and perhaps 2 resistors ...
I will post about this only if someone asks.
 
another Thread to look in



What I do not totally understand and has me puzzled, is how and where to physically place the ESR resistors, given the compactness of the PCB crossover layout.

Eg. For the 2*36uF caps at C8, I need to raise them above the 2 inductors, using the caps legs to support themselves. So how should the 1.0R be placed; as part of the leg supporting the caps and will it be stout enough to support the caps over the inductors?
As I stated, I’m new to all of this, so any help, explanation would be greatly appreciated. If anyone with the PCB version crossovers, has some pics they could post of their updated crossovers, that would be awesome.

Thanks, Dave

Hi Dave,

I thought I had posted details somewhere in this thread about the placement and mounting of both the capacitors and the resistors ...
but if such is not here-in, then go to the thread titled:

Crossover nightmare!!!!!!!

started by lorienblack .

It is about Celestion Ditton 44, which has a very similar crossover to 66.

I posted some things in there which may be relevant to other things you are wondering about also.

{There is stuff in there that is irrelevant - I think you will easily identify and be able to evalute or ignore.}

Best is to make new, larger boards to mount the components on, and hardwire everything
- directly connect the components to each other via their own leads, and to a centrally located Ground terminal for the returns to -ive.

There are some photos of large board constuctions in this thread,
but if you want to keep your pcbs, then first look through all the thread again,
because it is very time consuming to type detailed explanations,
and currently I have very little time available for DIY,
but I will look at this thread again in a few days to see what you have found, and what you may need to know next.

For questions that may arise after you read the other thread, post here, not there, if they are 66 related.
 
66's

Alan: If I do find out what he figures, I will for sure let all know.

Now to try & show 2 pics of my finished xovers.

xover 2.jpg

xover 1.jpg
 
Capacitor choices

I'm considering replacing my HF2000 tweeters with the Seas H0737 19TFF1 tweeters, could you explain the reason for the cap change?
Also, what resistors would you recommend?

Thanks Dave

Hi again Dave,

basically changing the Capacitance is to allow for the different Impedance of the SEAS to the HF2000 or Coles 4001 in the region of its response where the crossover has to roll off the signal to the tweeter in the same way as Celestion chose so that the tweeter output and mid-dome output will add to flat response, or at least to not cause any peaks or dips in the response that were not in the original.
I will explain more detail when I have time available, if you want to know more about it.

I will post the values for resistors then - 2 for each tweeter - and the cap will have to be larger than 6.2uF ... but for now,
as you are considering changing your tweeters for sonically better, it really is worth using sonically better caps for the tweeter and mids.
The Solen 250 volts are OK for the bass circuit ...
and if dloper posts about listening results with his Solens in there now, we can consider whether to stay with 36 + 36 = 72uF or use 68uF and 75uF.

As you have to buy internationally to obtain Mills MRA-5,
then it is worth buying ClarityCap PX, at least, for the mids and treble,
or Sonicap if the extra price seems OK to you.

If you cannot buy caps Mailorder from USA, then consider the Jantzen Cross Caps available in UK that I posted about in the other thread,
and where there is listener feedback posted ...
but they are larger physical size than ClarityCap.

Given various listener reports, use Jantzen if you want a little more brightness as well as better detail to the sound,
but if you don't want additional brightness, then try to obtain ClarityCap or Sonicap.

Yes, one cannot decide fully about aspects of brightness till after replacing the old caps,
but consider what you are currently hearing, and what you would like to acheive,
and post here so that I know what to recommend worth trying.

***********************************************

Hah, look at what Doug has just posted whilst I was typing !
Thankyou Doug - a picture says a thousand words, and two pictures say ... more !!

The other thread is still worth reading Dave, as it includes matters about Impedance in crossovers ...
and you'll find Doug was there also !
 
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Hi Alan...

Thank you for your advise, yours and others expertise has been invaluable in my quest to revitalize my Celestions.
After my initial post, I did go back and re-read this post again and some sections again and again. I did read the "Crossover Nightmare post also and a number of other posts that I felt would have some pertinent information. After countless headaches, I began to grasp and understand the knowledge that was being provided and decided to proceed with this upgrade.
I used Solen caps and Mills resistors, as these are easily obtainable in Canada. I made the switch yesterday and finished up kinda late, so I didn't get a chance to give a good listen, but my first impression favorable. The sound is definitely clearer and more detailed than before, especially the bass and midrange. I plan on spending a relaxing day today, listening to my new again and modern Celestion Ditton 66s.
I still think I'd like to give the Seas tweeters a try, either the "H0737 19TFF1" or the "H0586 19TDF", both appear to have the same specs and I can get the H0586 19TDF locally at a fairly reasonable price. Not that anything are wrong with my HF2000s (although before reading this post, I thought so), but I'd just like to hear these speakers with a modern, possibly better tweeter. If you happen back to this post, I'd appreciate your recommendation on resisters to use.
Thanks again for everything
Dave

=======================

Moermusic...

Thanks for posting those pictures of your crossovers, man are those caps ever HUGE. I was considering doing an extension to my PCB, to hold the caps I got to replace the 72uF or really take the plunge and build a new board to house everything. After seeing your pics, it made my Solen caps look tiny, so I went ahead and just used the PCB as is. It all turned out better than I thought it would, all the caps fit nicely on the board, with a few new pinholes drilled and I piggybacked the 2 36uF (for the 72uF), similar to how you have yours, over the inductors.
Thanks again for the pics... gonna go listen to some music =)
Dave
 
66 Seas

Alan, don't know if you're still watching this thread, it's been awhile since any activity, but I'll ask anyhow.

I'm considering replacing my HF2000 tweeters with the Seas H0737 19TFF1 tweeters, could you explain the reason for the cap change?
Also, what resistors would you recommend?

My 66s are the PCB versions.

Thanks Dave

I too am toying with this idea. If I use the 8.2uf output cap, I guess the present in series 0.5 resistor would need to change, in value or disappear alltogether? Then add the parallel resistor, of at this time of unknown value. Your advice keenly sought once again Alan.
Doug
 
the SEAS tweeters, and an Experiment to try first

I still think I'd like to give the Seas tweeters a try, either the "H0737 19TFF1" or the "H0586 19TDF", both appear to have the same specs and I can get the H0586 19TDF locally at a fairly reasonable price. Not that anything are wrong with my HF2000s (although before reading this post, I thought so), but I'd just like to hear these speakers with a modern, possibly better tweeter. If you happen back to this post, I'd appreciate your recommendation on resisters to use.
Thanks again for everything
Dave

Hi Dave and Doug,

SEAS H 586 as 19TDF I see listed on SEAS Vintage list,
but the actual Data Sheet that comes on screen is for 19TFF.
I am not sure what difference SEAS apply to *D* versus *F* versions.

There is small difference between H 586 and HO737 which can be seen on the Plots, as distinct from what is stated in the numerical data.
Relevant to your application will be the uF for the output capacitor which I think will need to be larger for 586 than for 737
because the lower treble roll-off within the crossover octave is different for each version of the tweeter,
{and both are different to HF2000 there, thus why the cap needs to be changed}.

I see listed on solen.ca HO586 19TDF at $34.97,
but when the PDF Technical documentation is opened there it is for HO737 19TFF1, thus what you may receive I do not know ...
better would be to ask Solen before buying.

BUT, before changing tweeters I strongly recommend you both refer to my Post #349 on Page 35
and lower down in there to the
EXPERIMENT:-
paragraph.

Try this first so as to ascertain the type of treble versus midrange presentation you prefer to hear - you might be surprised.

Each of you Post here what you can hear - after several sessions, including relaxed listening, not only for dedicated analytical listening
- that is, forget the analysis for the later listening sessions and simply play recordings you like.

Listen for several days, or even a week, to the changed version, then change back to the original and play the same recordings,
then decide what you want to do next.
 
Alan...

I did contact Solen regarding the HO586 19TDF listed and the link to the HO737 19TFF1 data sheet. It is the HO586 19TDF tweeters they have for sale.

Madisound has the HO737 19TFF1 for sale and that is the one I'm going to go with, should I choose to replace the HF2000.

Going to try your experiment and give a good listen. You've got me very curious as to the result.

Dave
 
SEAS tweeter, and 66 treble filter's old caps

Hi Dave,

I looked through my older notes about previous SEAS tweeters.

I have no record of there ever being a 19TDF anything model,
thus either the *D* there is a misprint on SEAS page list
-{because there is no D on the actual SEAS data sheet}-
which Solen have copied,
OR, the TDF tweeter perhaps was a custom-order version of the original H 586 19TFF made for a specific customer or for a specific purpose
-{such is common for driver manufacturers to do for their large quantity order customers, who are usually loudspeaker system manufacturers}.

The *D* may simply indicate a different colour finish, or a different material for the mounting plate, or a different shaped mounting plate
- all with the same active driver specifications,
OR, it may be a visually identical tweeter which has one or more slightly different active driver specifications.
I would want to see what label was printed on the driver, and if I bought a pair I would do some measurements on them.

Buying the new HO737 version is safer,
but if you decide to buy a H or HO 586 I recommend you email to SEAS before buying and ask them what is the difference between:-
H_586 19TFF and HO586 19TDF.

**********************************************

Dave and Doug,

keep your old capacitors from the treble filter section of the 66 crossover.
These are plastic with metal film and usually such do not deteriorate with age -{unless over driven}-.
They can be used in electrical Parallel connection to try as 8uF and 9.5uF as output cap to a new tweeter
to hear which sounds better before you spend on a new polypropylene cap.
 
Hi Dave,

Buying the new HO737 version is safer,
but if you decide to buy a H or HO 586 I recommend you email to SEAS before buying and ask them what is the difference between:-
H_586 19TFF and HO586 19TDF.

**********************************************

Dave and Doug,

keep your old capacitors from the treble filter section of the 66 crossover.
These are plastic with metal film and usually such do not deteriorate with age -{unless over driven}-.
They can be used in electrical Parallel connection to try as 8uF and 9.5uF as output cap to a new tweeter
to hear which sounds better before you spend on a new polypropylene cap.

Alan...

I would be purchasing the HO737. Madisound has a pretty good price on those and the shipping is pretty reasonable too.

Thanks for the heads up on using the old caps, that will for sure save some time and money ordering new ones. Any thoughts on resistors to use?

I switched the polarity on my tweeters last night and listened for a few hours. I don't have any thoughts or opinions on the effect, as yet, needs more time.
 
Spectral content of the test music, and other matters ...

Doug,

(1) - the mids are often overbearing from radio stations,
because a lot of listeners do not have full frequency range listening systems.
Radio stations boost the upper midrange to compensate for listener-systems which have little true treble extension,
AND, they boost the upper bass, just below the low-mids area, to compensate for listener-systems which don't have true bass extension
-{and that is the case with most of the general publics' home radios}.
The Radio engineers then filter off the highest treble frequencies, and often the lowest bass frequencies, so that their broadcast amplifiers power can be fully utilised to transmit the middle portion of the frequency spectrum as loudly as possibe to compete with other radio stations for the attention of the general public.
This is done mostly with Pop music and anything related to Pop music which radio station programmers think a lot of the general public will listen to.
Blues and some jazz and some folk music/world music types are included in this, and even popular "crossover" type Classical performers recordings.

(2) - to hear the effect of the tweeters in balance to the mids, choose recordings that are NOT modern Pop-oriented,
and similarly if Live broadcast of concerts, etc ...
Choose Classical recordings which have Violins - true orchestral classical,
not Andre Rieu -{spelling of his name ?}- or other pop-classical soloists,
OR, choose Folk or similar musics that feature steel-string acoustic guitars -
and again, non-popstar type folk or world music artists.

(3) - if you cannot hear the tweeters with any of your recordings,
post and state that here, and I'll advise what to do.

(4)- if the upper-midrange is dominating the tweeters you may have to change the resistor that is in Series with the 3.9uF cap in parallel with the MD500,
and/or, increase the resistor that is in series with the 25uF cap in the MD500 circuit.
What value resistors are currently in those two positions ?
 
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