Celestion 66 needs mid-range

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Alan: I subbed in a diff. spkr. today & got no sss after 10 mins. Put back on the suspect woof. After an hr from different sources at different vol's, & tone controls, never heard a single sss. ! BUT, just in case will you post the xover component checks, if not too long. (Us older folk mite get/have 'ritis in the knuckles.) Any thoughts about the woof trying to escape its cage and migrate across the room, before I hit the mute? & not having ever trying that again , yet.
Doug
 
Glad you're sorted - I just got a pair of woofers and tweeters off Ebay for £51 each per pair, plus postage. No way I expected to get them at that price. Were people not paying attention?

After checking the resistance I'll substitute them for the originals to confirm they're OK.

Well pleased with the result meantime
 
66 xover

Alan: I subbed in a diff. spkr. today & got no sss after 10 mins. Put back on the suspect woof. After an hr from different sources at different vol's, & tone controls, never heard a single sss. ! BUT, just in case will you post the xover component checks, if not too long. (Us older folk mite get/have 'ritis in the knuckles.) Any thoughts about the woof trying to escape its cage and migrate across the room, before I hit the mute? & not having ever trying that again , yet.
Doug

Alan: thank you for all the expertise on redoing my xovers.!! The tearing paper sound has disapeared from the woofer, at least for the last listening, which was 6 hrs long yesterday. What might have you suspected? :confused: :)
 
Hi Doug,

try swapping the 2 mid-drivers over, each to the other cabinet/crossover.

I'm not sure what caused the sound in the woofer.
If it returns, post about it and I'll list some possibilities.

*****************************************

I apologise, I have very little time available today - I will return to this,
and to other matters I have not yet replied to in this Thread as soon as time is available.
 
the repaired MD500

Disconnect one terminal of the repaired MD500 from the crossover and measure the DC resistance of that MD500.
I should be about 6.8ohm.
If it is a lot different, than such may be the reason for the low output whern it is used with that crossover.
But, even if it is close to 6.8ohm, if it has a lesser number of turns of a thinner guage of wire for its {new} voice-coil,
that voice-coil will have a lower Inductance, and thus less drive ability to the diaphragm, thus less output.
Later manufactured voice-coils may fit the magnet gap OK, but may be different specification in other ways if they were made for a later model driver after MD500 was discontinued.
I doubt there will be any real MD500 spec. voice-coils available.

Look for an MD500 for sale, or two in case one is deteriorating.
 
First part of reply to Reggie's situation:-

Reggie,

I will number the relevant points of your situation inside the quote box, and then reply to as many of those as I have time to address today in the space underneath the box.

Hello to all those involved in this thread. It's been a lengthy read and I must confess to being overwhelmed by the technical aspects you have covered.

---> (1) - I have no expertise to bring to the discussion

, but I did want to thank you for reaffirming my faith in the Celestion 66's. I bought mine new in 1975 (for anyone interested, I paid $900 Australian). I had recently thought of selling them but when I had listened to a few other loudspeakers (up to $Aus 7000) I found that the 66's, for all their perceived faults, sounded like a true full-range speaker (and, depending on related equipment and a good recording, had touches of excellence). So I've decided to keep them and spend what I have to on their restoration. Hence my participation in this discussion. I have several questions that I hope someone will be kind enough to answer for me please. My 66's are series 1 'blackies'. More than a few years ago one of the original tweeters ceased functioning. Having no idea about anything I took the speakers to a repairer who replaced

---> (2) - the tweeters with (what I have recently discovered to be) a no name brand.

---> (3) - He also saw fit to bi-wire, reconfigure the Xover

---> (4) - and update (some of) the capacitors.

This is my first question: I understand, from reading this thread, that the original tweeters were not the best but replacing them would (probably) give rise to alterations to the Xover.

---> (5) - However, given that this decision has already been taken out of my hands I'm now thinking of replacing the 'no-name's with Hickafon's (Hiquphon) OW1 or OW11. Is this a good idea?

---> (6) - Second question: I have read previous advice contained in this thread about the 66 bass, ie. move the speakers away from walls/lift of the floor/block up the abr if it's annoying. However, I'm wondering if the Celestion woofers are worthy of being restored or are there better items now available?

---> (7) - Third question: I've read, both here and on other internet forums, how good the MD500 midrange is. But because my 66's are the earlier series 1 they use the MF500. So, apart from the power rating, how do they rate vis a vis the MD500's?

---> (8) - And again, like the woofer, are they a worthy item for restoration?

---> (9)- Fourth question: Celestion sent me the original diagrams for the series 1 Xover's (also the series 11 and a pink noise test and some 66 publicity ads and reviews).

---> (10) - Is it a good idea to have the Xovers rebuilt to original specifications but using upmarket (probably Hovland and Mundorf) capacitors and inductors and with due diligence paid to any new drivers utilised.

---> (11) - Last Question: Any good advice to give me? eg. I've read here that it might be a good idea to lift the Xover point to the MF500 midrange from 500 hz to 600. etc.

I know this is a hazy concept but what I want to do is improve on the good points of the 66's and reduce the bad points without moving too far away from the Celestion sound.

---> (12) - Please note that I'm getting "professionals" to do the work.
Anyway, whatever advice you can provide will be gratefully accepted.

Reg

(1) - see my reply to (9) when I get to it.

(2) - inspect the tweeters and Post any numbers or letters that may be printed on either or both the fronts or backs of them.

(3) - where is the bi-wire split ?
Bass separate from mids and treble is better than treble separate from mids and bass.

The bi-wire connections can be changed, but did he do anything else to the crossover as part of what you describe as "reconfigure",
and if so, please describe what ?

(4) - which capacitors are replaced - that is from where in the circuit ?
And, what brand/s is/are the replacements ?
And, what are the values printed on each of the replacement caps ?

***************************************************

I have run out of time - I'll get back to this and address the other numbered points as soon as I am able to.
 
Second part of reply to Reggie's situation:-

Continuing from my Post # 409:-

--->(5) - This is my first question: I understand, from reading this thread, that the original tweeters were not the best but replacing them would (probably) give rise to alterations to the Xover. However, given that this decision has already been taken out of my hands I'm now thinking of replacing the 'no-name's with Hickafon's (Hiquphon) OW1 or OW11. Is this a good idea?

--->(6) - Second question: I have read previous advice contained in this thread about the 66 bass, ie. move the speakers away from walls/lift of the floor/block up the abr if it's annoying. However, I'm wondering if the Celestion woofers are worthy of being restored or are there better items now available?

--->(7) - Third question: I've read, both here and on other internet forums, how good the MD500 midrange is. But because my 66's are the earlier series 1 they use the MF500. So, apart from the power rating, how do they rate vis a vis the MD500's?

--->(8) - And again, like the woofer, are they a worthy item for restoration?

--->(9) - Fourth question: Celestion sent me the original diagrams for the series 1 Xover's (also the series 11 and a pink noise test and some 66 publicity ads and reviews).

--->(10) - Is it a good idea to have the Xovers rebuilt to original specifications but using upmarket (probably Hovland and Mundorf) capacitors and inductors and with due diligence paid to any new drivers utilised.

--->(11) - Last Question: Any good advice to give me? eg. I've read here that it might be a good idea to lift the Xover point to the MF500 midrange from 500 hz to 600. etc.

I know this is a hazy concept but what I want to do is improve on the good points of the 66's and reduce the bad points without moving too far away from the Celestion sound.

--->(12) - Please note that I'm getting "professionals" to do the work.
Anyway, whatever advice you can provide will be gratefully accepted.

Reg

(5) - Hiquphon OW1 is a very good tweeter,and likely I would use it myself in this application, however it is quite expensive, thus worth it only if your MF500s and woofers are in sufficiently good condition to likely last a long time.
This may be difficult to assess audibly if the crossovers have deteriorated,
but do physically inspect the woofers to see if any signs of cracks or splits anywhere in their cones and surrounds.
You will have read earlier in this thread about the buzz sound that develops when MF500 deteriorates, but if none in yours you may get long life yet !

And, there is another mid-dome which can be used with only small changes to the crossover -{but no other woofer}.

Hiq's OWII is higher Sensitivity, thus will require series resistive attenuation to match its output with the Celestion drivers, thus I don't think there is any advantage using it instead of the OWI.

Seeming closest in specification to the Celestion HF2000 is the Coles tweeter I listed in a couple of earlier posts, and that will require only a parallel connected resistor to match its Impedance to the crossover.
It is low price, but unless there is an Australian importer of Coles you will have to buy a pair via Mailorder from Coles in UK.

The SEAS tweeter I listed also in a couple of posts will be better sound than the HF2000 and the Coles, and what I recommend to use at reasonable price - and that is better value than buying old HF2000s from ebay sellers !

The SEAS will require a parallel connected resistor to match its Impedance to the crossover, and a slightly larger capacitance for the output cap of the treble filter in the crossover instead of the 6uF or 6.2uf in the originals.
6.8uF may be sufficient, but I would listen first with 8.2uF.
I will explain the reason for the larger capacitance if anyone decides on this option.

SEAS seem to be sold in Australia.
I will find and list the model # again if you have not found it in the thread.
It is 3 holes' fixing and may fitthe existing 3 in the baffle.

The Coles tweeter is also 3 holes' fixing.

(6) - if the woofers are in good condition they are worth continuing with.
There is no new product alternate that I know of, at least not at a reasonable price -
there may be a few very expensive 12" woofers available that are manufactured for a quality sound, and in 4 ohm Impedance.

A 4 ohm Impedance woofer is necessary or the Inductors in the crossover will have to be changed, and that will be expensive for similar quality new inductors.
Connecting a resistor in parallel with an 8 ohm woofer to try to simulate 4 ohm is not audibly simple in the way it is for mid-drivers and tweeters, because it will cause a noticeable change to the lowest frequency bass notes, and you may not like that.
I would only use a parallel resistor if there was excess low bass in all room locations,
or, after I had sealed off the ABR and still excess low bass.

(7) - to assess this you will have to listen to both.
I think the MD version is at least slightly better, and if I have guessed correctly which are the MDs and which are the MFs in sba's posted Impedance Plots in this thread there is evidence as to why the MD is better.
sba stated he doesn't hear any difference, however sba has applied the new capacitors differently to how I would, thus the differences may not be clearly obvious in his set-up, AND, depending on which of his 4 tweeters he is using with which MD or MF the sound differences may be less obvious also,
because the Impedance plots of his 4 tweeters show evidence that there can be differences in sound between some of them.
All that confuses the ear/brain as to what may be audible from where.

Safest economically is to buy SEAS instead of Hiquphon for new tweeters for MF mids, but let's try to identify your no-name tweeters first, and then hear those with decent quality capacitors, and decide about replacement tweeters matching MF500 later.

The latest Morel mid-dome can be adapted to use in the 66s if your MFs fail and there are no good condition MDs anywhere at reasonable price,
but if you see MDs at reasonable price then buy a pair now.
That is better than spending the money on very high priced capacitors, because mid-price caps will give quite good sound - more about cap after your later question about those.

(8) - Yes !

*****************************************************

Sorry, out of available time again - I'll return to this as soon as possible.
 
Third part of reply to Reggie's situation

Continuing from my Post # 410:-

--->(8) - And again, like the woofer, are they a worthy item for restoration?

--->(9) - Fourth question: Celestion sent me the original diagrams for the series 1 Xover's (also the series 11 and a pink noise test and some 66 publicity ads and reviews).

--->(10) - Is it a good idea to have the Xovers rebuilt to original specifications but using upmarket (probably Hovland and Mundorf) capacitors and inductors and with due diligence paid to any new drivers utilised.

--->(11) - Last Question: Any good advice to give me? eg. I've read here that it might be a good idea to lift the Xover point to the MF500 midrange from 500 hz to 600. etc.


--->(12) - I know this is a hazy concept but what I want to do is improve on the good points of the 66's and reduce the bad points without moving too far away from the Celestion sound.


Please note that I'm getting "professionals" to do the work.
Anyway, whatever advice you can provide will be gratefully accepted.

Reg

Again (8) - after thinking:-
Are you implying your woofers have already some evidence of deterioration ?

If so, please describe what ?

If any "professionals" have recommended any particular "restoration", describe what was proposed ?


(9) - are these diagrams the same as or different to those three RW Thomkins included in his Post #162 on Page 17 ?

Is different, please Post these here if you are able to.

The "pink noise test" - please Post that here if you are able to,
and any plots of test results from any of the "reviews",
because all such may assist with fine-tuning the cross-overs.
{this is my reply to my point (1) in #409.}


(10) - keep the original inductors till you hear the x-over with new capacitors,
because any possibly better inductors will be very expensive, and may not necessarily improve on what you have unless some other modifications are done.
Hovland caps are very good, as are some of the Mundorf series, but both are expensive.
Other brands as good or almost as good can be bought for lower prices,
unless both are low price in Australia ... ?

Why do you want to use H'land or M'dorf ?
- and which Series type of Mundorf caps did you have in mind ?


(11) - yes, I think it a good idea to at least slightly raise the x-over point to MF500, and that will be achieved by using 24uF or 25uF instead of the original 30uF or interim 28uF cap for the input of the mids' filter.

I'm considering another idea also, based on sba's posted Impedance plots for the mid-domes, and will decide this after sba returns and confirms which plot is for which type of mid-dome.


(12) - this is what most of the contributors to this thread seem to want to do,
and quite reasonably so, because as you have heard yourself the 66 is a very good sounding loudspeaker, and I doubt anything modern can be bought for its price that can better it for frequency bandwidth - though various modern smaller loudspeakers can beat it for midrange transparency and more accurate treble but not in bass extension, nor in some aspects of the large scale of its presentation.
A lot of money has to be spent now to buy significantly better over-all performance.

Keeping the "Celestion sound" is what I have been concentrating my advice on, and varying that only for particular changes that forum members are asking, as well as a few ideas to maintain the service life of the MF version of the mid-dome.
For this reason I am advising that vintage loudspeaker owners be wary of some of the "professionals", and be very careful about what is chosen to use for restorations, including capacitor replacements.

I strongly advise that you buy the replacement caps and resistors - after we finalize for your particular preferences and circumstances - and then that you hand draw a large diagram of the crossover circuit, and mark on it where each replacement component is to be connected, and give that to the professional to refer to when he solders the components in place.
{I am presuming that you have little confidence in your ability to solder well ?}
 
md 500

Disconnect one terminal of the repaired MD500 from the crossover and measure the DC resistance of that MD500.
I should be about 6.8ohm.
If it is a lot different, than such may be the reason for the low output whern it is used with that crossover.
But, even if it is close to 6.8ohm, if it has a lesser number of turns of a thinner guage of wire for its {new} voice-coil,
that voice-coil will have a lower Inductance, and thus less drive ability to the diaphragm, thus less output.
Later manufactured voice-coils may fit the magnet gap OK, but may be different specification in other ways if they were made for a later model driver after MD500 was discontinued.
I doubt there will be any real MD500 spec. voice-coils available.

Look for an MD500 for sale, or two in case one is deteriorating.

Coil *appears* to look like original new unused old stock. Has 6.1 ohms. Has exact same appearance as my burned out coil. Do have feelers out looking for another MD 500. :gasp:
 
measure your other MD500

I should have included to recommend you measure the DC resistance of the voice-coil of the other MD500 also, the original still working, non-repaired one,
for comparison.

Multimeters, unless highly accurate or Calibrated, do not measure low resistances very accurately, thus your MD500 resistances may not measure the same as other owners' MD500s, but both yours should measure close to the same with your multimeter.

If they don't, then the percentage difference may account for the difference in output, BUT, even if they do measure close to the same resistance, the voice-coil inductances could still be a bit different, as I explained about number of turns and wire diameter.

That "original new unused old stock" voice-coil could be from Celestion's next model mid-dome -{as in 551 loudspeaker}- which is different specification,
though I do not currently know any more about that later dome.
 
thanks Alan. the original coil is 6.1-6.3 ohms. The relacement coil was purchased from a source that you had concerns about he saying some woofs for sale were from the 66's. Think you are on the right track re coil inductance. Guess am out of options other than to find a real original. THANK YOU FOR ALL THE ADVICE & HELP !
PS: Its not the amp. 2 identical amps hooked to the 66's = the same result. With the same 2 amps hooked to my Yammie S4115H spkrs (15"woofs+horn>8ohm-100w), there is no difference in vol between right & left.
May your expertise help many others. Bye for now.
Doug
 
Celestion Ditton Studio Monitor 66

Hello Alan,

I have in my greedy little mits> oem, never used, properly stored, still factory sealed....on and on, MD500 mid domes!!!
In fact a complete factory kit replacement set for the 66's, xovers, mids, woofers, tweeters, passives, everything but the box, X2! ='S 4 monitors, hehe.

Probably the last set of factory new...

Would it be helpful if i took my multi meter to one for you guys?

I think that's right on the money (from a listening point of view) regarding the xover point change for this application >66''s. The upper mid & higher registers have been the only area of improvement needed, in my humble opinion.

Good to hear ;-) you all again!

ToneDef
 
Buy a pair of MD500 domes.

Doug,

the best option would be to buy a pair of as-new MD500 domes from tonedef2, and keep your OK sounding MD500 as a spare.

MF500 seems to have a different Impedance characteristic at its low frequency end than MD500, and is not as cleverly controlled in design.
This will be part of the reason for its lower power handling, as well as the heat capacity of its voice-coil.

If the MF500s are in good condition they can be got to work, and better with another resistor added to the crossover, but I would use MD500.
Consider the price you are asked for a pair of MD500.
Don't pay a lot for MF500 - they are old and condition and life expectancy is not known.
 
Hello Stuart,

perhaps the Falcon staff are on holidays, or perhaps they don't want to do the measuring.

My experience -{with other companies}- is whether or not a non-technical knowledge staff-person will measure something depends very much whether they understand what the questioner is asking, and/or whether they think there will be a sale involved to make their time spent worth it.

Also, some technical people don't consider a less than +/- 5% difference in capacitance to be audibly significant for a loudspeaker crossover,
-{though they would consider it significant for making a tuned filter for R.F. application}.

Getting an answer also depends very much on how the question is asked,
thus why I PM'd you a Draft for the question,
and, they have to understand from the email that you do seriously want to buy.

Try a follow-up email on Monday, and phrase it strategically !
{but don't write as if annoyed at receiving no reply}.

If no reply soon, post again and I'll list the French seller of 36uF - to use as a parallel pair to sum to 72uF in each position.

*********************************************************

L-pad:-

6 ohm is very large for the series leg !
Either you don't like hearing much midrange, or there is another problem with the drivers ...
If no other problem with the drivers, then as you have attenuated the mid-drivers so much you will substantially hear that upper-bass/low-mids' resonance from the woofer.

Given the non-linear wrt SPL way the human ear/brain works, the frequency spectrum sounds different at different volume levels,
thus do the fine-tuning at a realistic listening level that is not the quietest level that has to be sometimes used, nor the loudest sometimes' use level,
because you will find the difference between L-pads' settings for those extremes will be large.

For your previous electrical location of the L-pads you posted only 1 ohm for the series leg.
The electrical location now will give a different compromise resistance, though it shouldn't be as high as 6 ohms ... however you are entitled to your preferences !

Try again as above, but you may as well not decide finally till after you hear with the poly caps fitted.

Hello again Alan - got my Solen poly caps from Falcon, measured as follows: 70.1, 70.34, 70.43 and 70.7 uF. They are BIG - 65mm long and 50mm diameter, but they'll fit my boards ok.

Also added some more soft furnishings to the room, and can reduce the mid attenution quite a lot now. Won't post figures until I've experimented again after fitting the new bass caps.

Stuart
 
Have a look at ...

Hello Alan,



---> (1) - Would it be helpful if i took my multi meter to one for you guys?

---> (2) - I think that's right on the money (from a listening point of view) regarding the xover point change for this application >66''s. The upper mid & higher registers have been the only area of improvement needed, in my humble opinion.

ToneDef

Hi Pete,

its good that you have returned !

(1) - Thankyou for your offer to measure voice-coil resistances for us.
I think you may have already posted those for your older drivers.
Really what I wanted here was to see was what moermusic's meter would show for both drivers
to be able to discern whether he had a similar voice-coil resistance in both.


If you have not seen already, have a look on Page 36 at Post #354 by sba.
These are plots of the Impedance characteristics of two MD500s & two MF500s & two Beovox 5700 MF500s.
I do not know which is for which type, though sba will return with this information when he is able to.

My guess is that the two Green plots are for the MD500s, because both show what I would expect to be the case for drivers with the type of mechanical damping that you explained to us early in this thread.

The Purple plot shows what is likely a faulty driver - probably with deteriorated mechanical damping.
I would not be surprised if this driver was beginning to display the audible buzzing you described, unless sba has suitably small value capacitor at the input to its filter in the crossover to lower the susceptability to and audibility of whatever buzzing.

The Blue and Orange plots are probably MF500s, each with differences at one and the other side of the manufacturing Tolerance, and/or, different degrees of deterioration ... but probably not excessive.

The Yellow plot shows a driver which has either an out-of-spec voice-coil, or a voice-coil which is mechanically in slightly the wrong place, or a different type of deterioration to the Purple driver.


(2) - What brands of capacitors did you eventually put in what locations in your crossovers ?
- and what resistance values ?
Did the resistances seem close enough to optimum in your first choices ?

It seems you are happy with the sound, thus I am curious the capacitor brands you used, and resistor ohms.

Given other discoveries since you were last here, I think treating the cabinet for diffraction/reflections under its top lip will be sufficient,
and probably not a huge further improvement would be achieved with any side of drivers treatment.
What did you eventually do, and can you describe any particular audible benefit ?

***********************************************************

Those as-new-unused 66 components, will you sell them individually, or only in pairs of each type, or only as full sets to make a pair of loudspeakers ?
 
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