First: I completely understand and agree with all the math, that all said Pjotr, I disagree that it is "silly" to build our own DSP based filters. I completely understand that a linear phase FIR filter may give the lowest mathematical error. That all said, it does not mean it sounds best. Remember that a class AB amplifier with 0.001% distortion may be mathematically more accurate than a class A amplifier with 0.1% distortion, but there is not guarentee that it will sound better.
I am not convinced that a linear phase filter will sound better than a minimum phase filter. Yes, I know they are mathematically closer to perfection, but that does not mean they will sound better.
I will also have to dig through my audio reviews, but there are some DAC units out there that attempt to do more complex signal reconstruction than just simple oversampling. I would like to play with that.
The thing that may make a custom filter on the output pointless or at least not as effective, is what happens on the input. I think almost all studios used oversampling sigma-delta ADC based equipment. There is some benefit to that in that the old nasty anti-aliasing filters based on elliptec and chebyshev implementation in the analog domain are gone. However, a significant amount of processing has gone on.
I am not convinced that a linear phase filter will sound better than a minimum phase filter. Yes, I know they are mathematically closer to perfection, but that does not mean they will sound better.
I will also have to dig through my audio reviews, but there are some DAC units out there that attempt to do more complex signal reconstruction than just simple oversampling. I would like to play with that.
The thing that may make a custom filter on the output pointless or at least not as effective, is what happens on the input. I think almost all studios used oversampling sigma-delta ADC based equipment. There is some benefit to that in that the old nasty anti-aliasing filters based on elliptec and chebyshev implementation in the analog domain are gone. However, a significant amount of processing has gone on.
Pedja, you’re quite right about the Gibbs phenomenon. But it is often overlooked too easily, or people are not even aware of it.
And the maths? It is just a tool to make things more understandable and improve things, nothing else. Although many people make a living of it
Alvaius, I am not a mathematician . I am just an engineer, using math to get things working, just as I use simulation to get some idea of what to expect. For electronics and how it can interact the dynamics of mechanics it is driving, I use PSpice a lot. It can speed up development, but still you need to know what to put in and what to expect from it. These tools are not holy but are of help and sometimes useless at all.
But if You go ahead looking for better algorithms to improve the sound coming out of the DAC, that’s fine. But up to now, I didn’t hear much improvement from all that special stuff compared to the regular stuff. The only real improvement over CD I have heard, is properly recorded DVD-Audio.
That is just the point. When we buy a CD we have no control over the AD process used for it. Nearly all material is recorded with a brick-wall filter in front of the AD converter, with just that pre and post ringing behaviour. Nowadays implemented with oversampling and digital filtering. Correct me when I am wrong. For this reason you are more to reality by using a band limited digital square for testing the DA process at hand. Just as it wise to lo pass filter a square wave at app. 50 kHz, or even lower, before feeding it to a power amp for testing.
And the maths? It is just a tool to make things more understandable and improve things, nothing else. Although many people make a living of it
Alvaius, I am not a mathematician
. I am just an engineer, using math to get things working, just as I use simulation to get some idea of what to expect. For electronics and how it can interact the dynamics of mechanics it is driving, I use PSpice a lot. It can speed up development, but still you need to know what to put in and what to expect from it. These tools are not holy but are of help and sometimes useless at all.But if You go ahead looking for better algorithms to improve the sound coming out of the DAC, that’s fine. But up to now, I didn’t hear much improvement from all that special stuff compared to the regular stuff. The only real improvement over CD I have heard, is properly recorded DVD-Audio.
This is getting old.....
Along with all this non o/s crap.
Look, we have no control how CDs are made. Go ahead, waste your time trying to design your own filters.
You want to really fix your damn CD player........put a low-jitter clock in it and shut up. That gets around all this non-o/s nonsense, and make any oversampling, high-bit unit sound about as good as you can get.
I post a decent low-noise oscillator and almost no one takes notice. You guys would rather keep banging your heads against the wall trying to make 1986 technology sound like the Holy Grail. Arguing about which op-amp will slew fast enough, and other stupid stuff.
It ain't gonna happen.
As another notorious trouble maker said in this forum not long ago, "Where is an engineer when you really need one?" I'm not sure most of you guys would recognise one.
End of rant.
Jocko
Along with all this non o/s crap.
Look, we have no control how CDs are made. Go ahead, waste your time trying to design your own filters.
You want to really fix your damn CD player........put a low-jitter clock in it and shut up. That gets around all this non-o/s nonsense, and make any oversampling, high-bit unit sound about as good as you can get.
I post a decent low-noise oscillator and almost no one takes notice. You guys would rather keep banging your heads against the wall trying to make 1986 technology sound like the Holy Grail. Arguing about which op-amp will slew fast enough, and other stupid stuff.
It ain't gonna happen.
As another notorious trouble maker said in this forum not long ago, "Where is an engineer when you really need one?" I'm not sure most of you guys would recognise one.
End of rant.
Jocko
Altought rude this is somewhat true.
Non o/s dac are not better than o/s.
Why bothering using them if they where inferior.
Anyways I hate the sound of cd but we are stuck with them.
(At least one just listen to som 24 bit recodring on a 24 bit sound card. I'Ve heard it a couple of time and it's uncomparable to 16bit)
But most of you will just ignore my comment anyways.
Non o/s dac are not better than o/s.
Why bothering using them if they where inferior.
Anyways I hate the sound of cd but we are stuck with them.
(At least one just listen to som 24 bit recodring on a 24 bit sound card. I'Ve heard it a couple of time and it's uncomparable to 16bit)
But most of you will just ignore my comment anyways.
You hang around here playing as though you have exclusive credentials
I am not an audio engineer, but I play one on the web. Don't think of it as abuse, but as tough love. Those of you who think you know everything, are starting to annoy those of us that really do.
If you are going to talk the talk you got to walk the walk. Armchair engineerning and spice modeling do not an audio engineer make. I know Jocko does plenty of measurements and listening test and I have heard the results many times. I believe that what is know as credibility, although that word has lost its meaning in a world full of so called experts, with little to back up that claim. As I have said many times....... there is a big difference between hearing something and hearing about it.
I also say"Hats Off" to Jocko which I am sure is what you meant by ".... off".
Begones,
Fred
P.S. I think everybody needs his abuse.
I am not an audio engineer, but I play one on the web. Don't think of it as abuse, but as tough love. Those of you who think you know everything, are starting to annoy those of us that really do.
If you are going to talk the talk you got to walk the walk. Armchair engineerning and spice modeling do not an audio engineer make. I know Jocko does plenty of measurements and listening test and I have heard the results many times. I believe that what is know as credibility, although that word has lost its meaning in a world full of so called experts, with little to back up that claim. As I have said many times....... there is a big difference between hearing something and hearing about it. I also say"Hats Off" to Jocko which I am sure is what you meant by ".... off".
Begones,
Fred
P.S. I think everybody needs his abuse.
Can there be some more respect please ?
I think comments like : "90 year sabbatical" and "**** off" aren't constructive and might cause people to feel hurt and not coming back. Plus it will scare new visitors to join discussions. I am not scared by rude language if it adds something to the topic, but some people are. It's plain useless to continue like this.
This forum is for everybody no matter what opinion they have about os or not os, tubes versus transistors etc. When discussion is done with respect there may come a day that you even agree with somebody that is convinced of the opposite of your ideas or findings. Or it can shed a new light on matters you already knew.
A process called learning ...
I think comments like : "90 year sabbatical" and "**** off" aren't constructive and might cause people to feel hurt and not coming back. Plus it will scare new visitors to join discussions. I am not scared by rude language if it adds something to the topic, but some people are. It's plain useless to continue like this.
This forum is for everybody no matter what opinion they have about os or not os, tubes versus transistors etc. When discussion is done with respect there may come a day that you even agree with somebody that is convinced of the opposite of your ideas or findings. Or it can shed a new light on matters you already knew.
A process called learning ...
As they say on the Howard Stern radio show, if you don't like it, you can turn it off.
Or another saying, progress in science is often made not because a new idea is so obviously right, but because all the naysayers who say it is wrong, have died.
The fact that you don't like or don't agree with the way a thread is going, doesn't mean that you can berate the people who feel they are actively contributing to the discussion. Use that mouse, and go to another thread.
Or another saying, progress in science is often made not because a new idea is so obviously right, but because all the naysayers who say it is wrong, have died.
The fact that you don't like or don't agree with the way a thread is going, doesn't mean that you can berate the people who feel they are actively contributing to the discussion. Use that mouse, and go to another thread.
Alvaius,
I don't berate people. Altough not actively contributing I like to read all posts written about this subject.
Cursing isn't going to help in discussions and the comparison with Howard Stern is ridiculous. Or is this forum an american freakshow ? I just think attacking people with the written word on a public forum doesn't make the world any better.
Which one is me......
And which one is Phred?
Comedy this good you can't get just anywhere.
Why some of you guys want to contiue hand-wringing about Gibbs phenomenon and trying to make your own filters is beyond me. There are several things that you guys can do to make CD players sound better. Things with more bang for the buck, and probably within the grasp of the average DIYer. So for those of you intersested in learning, I will start a new thead. For those of you who want to play DIY "King of the Hill", you can have your thread back.
Jocko
And which one is Phred?
Comedy this good you can't get just anywhere.
Why some of you guys want to contiue hand-wringing about Gibbs phenomenon and trying to make your own filters is beyond me. There are several things that you guys can do to make CD players sound better. Things with more bang for the buck, and probably within the grasp of the average DIYer. So for those of you intersested in learning, I will start a new thead. For those of you who want to play DIY "King of the Hill", you can have your thread back.
Jocko
Gibb's phenomenon
I started a joke, which started the whole world crying,
but I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.
I started to cry, which started the whole world laughing,
oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.
I looked at the skies, running my hands over my eyes,
and I fell out of bed, hurting my head from things that I'd said.
I can think of younger days when living for my life
Was everything a man could want to do
I could never see tomorrow
But I was never told about the sorrow
And how can you mend a broken heart?
How can you stop the rain from falling down?
How can you stop the sun from shining?
What makes the world go around?
How can you mend this broken man?
How can a loser ever win?
I started a joke, which started the whole world crying,
but I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.
I started to cry, which started the whole world laughing,
oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.
I looked at the skies, running my hands over my eyes,
and I fell out of bed, hurting my head from things that I'd said.
I can think of younger days when living for my life
Was everything a man could want to do
I could never see tomorrow
But I was never told about the sorrow
And how can you mend a broken heart?
How can you stop the rain from falling down?
How can you stop the sun from shining?
What makes the world go around?
How can you mend this broken man?
How can a loser ever win?
Attachments
TO Jean-Paul,
If you follow the whole thread, you will see that we are in agreement. I was only "attacking" those that felt they had to berate other on this thread. I don't agree with many of the views in this thread, but I don't go around calling them names which has been done on this thread as well as other non-constructive criticism.
Funny thing, the people in the speaker forum seem to take themselves a lot less seriously......
If you follow the whole thread, you will see that we are in agreement. I was only "attacking" those that felt they had to berate other on this thread. I don't agree with many of the views in this thread, but I don't go around calling them names which has been done on this thread as well as other non-constructive criticism.
Funny thing, the people in the speaker forum seem to take themselves a lot less seriously......
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