Konnichiwa,
No, you need only consider the cableing that is subejct to various circulating noise current loops and/or aerial loops. Theses usually reach to the distribution extension or power conditioner/distribution or in the worst case the actual house/flat wiring up to to the distribution after the meter.
Also, in many cases well installed house wiring can be quite "audiophile" in nature. Often cables are placed in metal piping (for protection) and in-wall house wiring invariably uses solid core wiring, giving you shielded, solid core mains wiring around the house. Not a bad start if you ask me.
Sayonara
li_gangyi said:
No, you need only consider the cableing that is subejct to various circulating noise current loops and/or aerial loops. Theses usually reach to the distribution extension or power conditioner/distribution or in the worst case the actual house/flat wiring up to to the distribution after the meter.
Also, in many cases well installed house wiring can be quite "audiophile" in nature. Often cables are placed in metal piping (for protection) and in-wall house wiring invariably uses solid core wiring, giving you shielded, solid core mains wiring around the house. Not a bad start if you ask me.
Sayonara
If they can?
Can a change of air-intake improve the power of your enegine?
Off course, but still the grade of improvement depends on what enegine you run and on your driving-experience. Grandma might not notice any change..
- and (-as some of you sallready know ) the answer is: avoid stranded cables, all over, power too.
Can a change of air-intake improve the power of your enegine?
Off course, but still the grade of improvement depends on what enegine you run and on your driving-experience. Grandma might not notice any change..
- and (-as some of you sallready know
) the answer is: avoid stranded cables, all over, power too.sully said:
I'm impressed by your optimism...
Unfortunately, I think too many people prefer to just talk about stuff rather than actually performing experiments (or even just listening).
If it helps, I conducted a listening test to compare 1m of standard, unscreened, multistrand, mains cord and 5m of the same. I could hear no change (even in my imagination).
If this cord is degrading the sound in some way, then the longer one should be significantly worse, shouldn't it? I'm not particularly willing to buy and try an 'audiophile' mains cord until this simple test shows any results.
Cheers
IH
(Quite obviously deaf, and proud of it)
Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Konnichiwa,
There are a few possible reasons for this result:
1) The powercord was applied ahead of the entire system and hence was outside the various sonically relevant current loops.
2) The powercord was applied to a piece of equipment with exemplary good powersupply design (or other implemented design measures to break parasitic noise current loops).
3) The powercord applied (between the different length) was inherently sufficiently bad that the extended length did not provide a suitably material disimprovement to be audible.
4) The powercord was applied to a system where the transparency is insufficient.
5) A variety of combinations with varying percentages of the above.
Did you make any tests prior to active blind testing to establish the degree of discrimination allowed by the test system and blind tests (using changes "known/proven" to be audible under blind conditions)?
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
IanHarvey said:
There are a few possible reasons for this result:
1) The powercord was applied ahead of the entire system and hence was outside the various sonically relevant current loops.
2) The powercord was applied to a piece of equipment with exemplary good powersupply design (or other implemented design measures to break parasitic noise current loops).
3) The powercord applied (between the different length) was inherently sufficiently bad that the extended length did not provide a suitably material disimprovement to be audible.
4) The powercord was applied to a system where the transparency is insufficient.
5) A variety of combinations with varying percentages of the above.
Did you make any tests prior to active blind testing to establish the degree of discrimination allowed by the test system and blind tests (using changes "known/proven" to be audible under blind conditions)?
Sayonara
Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
This is right and it works for me ...
Yes ,
YBA for example recommends a minimum of lenght for theyr cables : 125cm, or multiples ...
I tried it and it works very well ...and not only in my set up.
I use all my cables at 125cm now . For example, between the turn table and the phono pre, a cable of 1 meter sound worse than that of 1.25meters ... You think of cut the cable for the min lenght and with the cable you cut the highs , the basses ... I know it seems some religious things ... but it's true.
The same for the power cords , 125cm or 250cm . It makes the difference.
very!
Kuei Yang Wang said:
This is right and it works for me ...
li_gangyi said:
Yes ,
YBA for example recommends a minimum of lenght for theyr cables : 125cm, or multiples ...
I tried it and it works very well ...and not only in my set up.
I use all my cables at 125cm now . For example, between the turn table and the phono pre, a cable of 1 meter sound worse than that of 1.25meters ... You think of cut the cable for the min lenght and with the cable you cut the highs , the basses ... I know it seems some religious things ... but it's true.
The same for the power cords , 125cm or 250cm . It makes the difference.
very
!Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
1) The powercord was applied ahead of the entire system and hence was outside the various sonically relevant current loops.
This wasn't the case. Does this mean that current/earth loops are the only mechanism worth considering here?
2) The powercord was applied to a piece of equipment with exemplary good powersupply design (or other implemented design measures to break parasitic noise current loops).
Yes, I've taken a lot of trouble to get the grounding right. There are no earth loops. But then saying "my amp has sufficiently good PSRR" implies the statement "my amp isn't influenced by mains cord changes", which is where I started.
3) The powercord applied (between the different length) was inherently sufficiently bad that the extended length did not provide a suitably material disimprovement to be audible.
This seems to imply there is a maximum level of 'badness' beyond which it is not possible to go...
4) The powercord was applied to a system where the transparency is insufficient.
Could be. Obviously, if this is the case I'd be better off pursuing this rather than mucking about with power cords.
Did you make any tests prior to active blind testing to establish the degree of discrimination allowed by the test system
Do you have scale of such things? The system in question has a discriminating power somewhere between 'can hear it if one speaker is not plugged in' and 'can hear it if you put a photograph in the freezer'.
Cheers
IH
1) The powercord was applied ahead of the entire system and hence was outside the various sonically relevant current loops.
This wasn't the case. Does this mean that current/earth loops are the only mechanism worth considering here?
2) The powercord was applied to a piece of equipment with exemplary good powersupply design (or other implemented design measures to break parasitic noise current loops).
Yes, I've taken a lot of trouble to get the grounding right. There are no earth loops. But then saying "my amp has sufficiently good PSRR" implies the statement "my amp isn't influenced by mains cord changes", which is where I started.
3) The powercord applied (between the different length) was inherently sufficiently bad that the extended length did not provide a suitably material disimprovement to be audible.
This seems to imply there is a maximum level of 'badness' beyond which it is not possible to go...
4) The powercord was applied to a system where the transparency is insufficient.
Could be. Obviously, if this is the case I'd be better off pursuing this rather than mucking about with power cords.
Did you make any tests prior to active blind testing to establish the degree of discrimination allowed by the test system
Do you have scale of such things? The system in question has a discriminating power somewhere between 'can hear it if one speaker is not plugged in' and 'can hear it if you put a photograph in the freezer'.
Cheers
IH
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Konnichiwa,
References not even needed. May suggest the following Items which I would consider as "generally known audible"?
1) Polarity Inversion in one channel only.
2) Swap stereo channels.
3) 128kbps MP3 vs CD
I think few people would argue about the audibility of the above, yet I would have no problem constructing a ABX Test using a basic setup, suitably bad arrangements etc. and apropriate statistics (.05 level of significance) which would result in a fair number people scoring no significant difference.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
fcserei said:
References not even needed. May suggest the following Items which I would consider as "generally known audible"?
1) Polarity Inversion in one channel only.
2) Swap stereo channels.
3) 128kbps MP3 vs CD
I think few people would argue about the audibility of the above, yet I would have no problem constructing a ABX Test using a basic setup, suitably bad arrangements etc. and apropriate statistics (.05 level of significance) which would result in a fair number people scoring no significant difference.
Sayonara
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Sorry, answered a bit too fast.
The list you provided is simply too obvious and mixed. I's like saying if you are going to test the new Ferrari, make sure first it has wheels.
If the PC sound change would be as obvious as these wrong setup you mentioned above, then why do the PC crowd allways refuse to make a proper controlled test.
Sorry, answered a bit too fast.
The list you provided is simply too obvious and mixed. I's like saying if you are going to test the new Ferrari, make sure first it has wheels.
If the PC sound change would be as obvious as these wrong setup you mentioned above, then why do the PC crowd allways refuse to make a proper controlled test.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Konnichiwa,
They and "aerial" loops account for the main problems. Note however that the parasitic loops are more complex than you might think. Please account for leakage through the Mains TX into the Chassis and signal ground, the inclusion of multiple, interconnected pieces of equipement and a mixture of safety insulated and earthed pieces of equipment.
Amp <> System
Mains cables are a systematic issue, not one on individual equipment level.
Yes, or at least far enough to to make any further changes much less audible.
Of course. I would under no conditions propose a change of powercords as the "fix it all" of audio gear.
In fact, I would rate as follows:
1) Speaker/Room interactions and setup
2) General Electronics Issues (crap caps, op-amps etc)
3) Powerconditioning
4) Speakercables/Interconnects
5) Mains Cables
My PERSONAL ascending test of discrimination is as follows:
1) Invert polarity of one stereo channel under blind conditions
2) Swap Stereo Channels
3) Difference between RG-214 with WBT RCA plugs and Radioshack "Goldpatch" RCA Cables
4) Polarity inversion in both stereo channels
It is my experience that all the above CAN be audible in blind tests having a sensible statistical methode applied which equalises the risk of type A and type B errors.
If any of the above are found inaudible by either all listeners or by some the structure of the experiemnt should be changed untill they become audible, if small differences are the subject of the test. Items One & Two should be detected absolutely reliably under all circumstances, otherwise the subject in question would be well advised to take a hearing test.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
IanHarvey said:
They and "aerial" loops account for the main problems. Note however that the parasitic loops are more complex than you might think. Please account for leakage through the Mains TX into the Chassis and signal ground, the inclusion of multiple, interconnected pieces of equipement and a mixture of safety insulated and earthed pieces of equipment.
IanHarvey said:
Amp <> System
Mains cables are a systematic issue, not one on individual equipment level.
IanHarvey said:
Yes, or at least far enough to to make any further changes much less audible.
IanHarvey said:
Of course. I would under no conditions propose a change of powercords as the "fix it all" of audio gear.
In fact, I would rate as follows:
1) Speaker/Room interactions and setup
2) General Electronics Issues (crap caps, op-amps etc)
3) Powerconditioning
4) Speakercables/Interconnects
5) Mains Cables
IanHarvey said:
My PERSONAL ascending test of discrimination is as follows:
1) Invert polarity of one stereo channel under blind conditions
2) Swap Stereo Channels
3) Difference between RG-214 with WBT RCA plugs and Radioshack "Goldpatch" RCA Cables
4) Polarity inversion in both stereo channels
It is my experience that all the above CAN be audible in blind tests having a sensible statistical methode applied which equalises the risk of type A and type B errors.
If any of the above are found inaudible by either all listeners or by some the structure of the experiemnt should be changed untill they become audible, if small differences are the subject of the test. Items One & Two should be detected absolutely reliably under all circumstances, otherwise the subject in question would be well advised to take a hearing test.
Sayonara
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Konnichiwa,
It is exactly what I am saying about Blind testing. I am aware of way to many tests and their setups (incl. the statistics basic assumptions) which in your example are equal to a Ferrari without wheels but where still published in support of the lack of audibility of a variety of things.
I never said the change was as obvious. I merely pointed out that there are a few things that can be easily tested on a given test setup (including listener) PRIOR to testing for the audibility of smaller (alleged) differences.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
fcserei said:
It is exactly what I am saying about Blind testing. I am aware of way to many tests and their setups (incl. the statistics basic assumptions) which in your example are equal to a Ferrari without wheels but where still published in support of the lack of audibility of a variety of things.
fcserei said:
I never said the change was as obvious. I merely pointed out that there are a few things that can be easily tested on a given test setup (including listener) PRIOR to testing for the audibility of smaller (alleged) differences.
Sayonara
Re: Subjective world!
That bit of pretzel logic has always amused me. If someone perceives a differece, they insist it must only be due to some actual, audible stimulus. If someone else doesn't perceive a difference, they insist it must only be due to that someone else being deaf and/or having a crappy system.
And some wonder why audiophilia is sometimes compared to religion.
se
m.parigi said:
That bit of pretzel logic has always amused me. If someone perceives a differece, they insist it must only be due to some actual, audible stimulus. If someone else doesn't perceive a difference, they insist it must only be due to that someone else being deaf and/or having a crappy system.
And some wonder why audiophilia is sometimes compared to religion.
se
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Can a power cord affect sound quality??
Konnichiwa,
You seen it:
"My PERSONAL ascending test of discrimination is as follows"
I personally found that under blind conditions the majority of my subjects (non audiophiles through the bank) could detect the difference at or above 8/10.
And no, I did not publish the test nor could I ever be arsed to so, I have no interest in providing research for others, I merely sometimes like to answer questions for myself, rather taking other peoples data unquestioning.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
fcserei said:
You seen it:
"My PERSONAL ascending test of discrimination is as follows"
I personally found that under blind conditions the majority of my subjects (non audiophiles through the bank) could detect the difference at or above 8/10.
And no, I did not publish the test nor could I ever be arsed to so, I have no interest in providing research for others, I merely sometimes like to answer questions for myself, rather taking other peoples data unquestioning.
Sayonara
So you say , that a test subject who can detect among other basic differences the not so obvious interconnect sound differences in your system, also can reliably detect PC sound.
I've huge doubts about the bias control in your tests
Anyway if your tests are thorough and repruducible, why do't you publish it? You have the proof everybody is waiting for. Why do you spend your days eating the bittersweet bread of computer consultants, if you could make huge money in non audio related industries with the proof of the cable differences.
I've huge doubts about the bias control in your tests
Anyway if your tests are thorough and repruducible, why do't you publish it? You have the proof everybody is waiting for. Why do you spend your days eating the bittersweet bread of computer consultants, if you could make huge money in non audio related industries with the proof of the cable differences.
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