Konnichiwa,
You must forgive my english. It is my third language and I do not speak or write it very well, sorry.
What I attempted to convey with the phrase "almost subliminal" was a change that is at the edge of concious audibility but is nevertheless notable by hightened emotional involvement in the music, a greater enjoyment and interest in the music as well as more willingness to listen. I notice that sort of thing very strongly, as when music (reproduction) bores me I quickly drift off.
If you feel I should correct my wording, please suggest the correct use of English.
Sayonara
Lusso5 said:Test Report from Thorsten Loesch, London (Excerpt) http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm - scroll down.
"While C37 lacquering does change the tonality to one that is generally more dynamic, warmer and more pleasant, the biggest change is on an almost subliminal level. The C37 lacquered gear sounds more open and detailed as before, but most important – it sounds more listenable and more capable of communicating the emotion in the music."
"Subliminal"?"Almost subliminal"
You must forgive my english. It is my third language and I do not speak or write it very well, sorry.
What I attempted to convey with the phrase "almost subliminal" was a change that is at the edge of concious audibility but is nevertheless notable by hightened emotional involvement in the music, a greater enjoyment and interest in the music as well as more willingness to listen. I notice that sort of thing very strongly, as when music (reproduction) bores me I quickly drift off.
If you feel I should correct my wording, please suggest the correct use of English.
Sayonara
HI
C37 Is all except subliminal...
I`ve used dammar, white glue, dope, violin varnish (belhen and a cheap one on ebay) and finaly C37.
C37 is more effective than previous one.
I have compared C37 vs belhen and the ebay varnish; Texture and smell is very different. time to cure is very different too. I applied one coat on a paper and I can ply c37 more than other before it break...
My lowther DX4 sound so better now. If I have the chance to go back and even if C37 would cost double the actual price, I will do it again
Even if lowther of america don`t recomment this treatment, It`s just so better that "stock cone"
Just my opinion.
Martin Poulin
C37 Is all except subliminal...
I`ve used dammar, white glue, dope, violin varnish (belhen and a cheap one on ebay) and finaly C37.
C37 is more effective than previous one.
I have compared C37 vs belhen and the ebay varnish; Texture and smell is very different. time to cure is very different too. I applied one coat on a paper and I can ply c37 more than other before it break...
My lowther DX4 sound so better now. If I have the chance to go back and even if C37 would cost double the actual price, I will do it again
Even if lowther of america don`t recomment this treatment, It`s just so better that "stock cone"
Just my opinion.
Martin Poulin
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Thorsten - I think you're one of the most knowledgeable individuals to grace this site, and I've learned much from your posts. Your english doesnt need correcting. From what I've read though, I can't accept that applying C37 to PCBs and wires will change anything, but perception, but if that is enough for some, then so be it.
Thing is, he prices it so high, only a believer, sold on the marketing, would buy it in the first place. A skeptic is unlikely to spend the $155 on it to try it out.
etalon90 - no one doubts its possible to smooth a FR with a coating, or C37.
Konnichiwa,
Then MAYBE it may be worthwhile to stop reading and start experimenting. I have approached such things AS C37 with extreme prejudice (I am after all a traditionally trained EE), however I felt I needed to try this (see my comments in the ETM "review" of C37). Rest assured, even when coating PCB's it does not only change perception. But then, leaving most screews out of a PCB and all but one of the remaining somewhat loose (trickey that) also changes the sound often drastically so, the SOUND, not the PERCEPTION of it.
For what it's worth, any chip with FET's is a tension/pressure sensor. Be it a DAC, a FET op-Amp, a Digital filter with CMOS based logic et al. Electrolytic capacitors especially but also many film capacitors make good condensor mikes (poor frequency response admittedly).
Well, a skeptic actually WOULD try it. At any extent, i have talked many times to Mr. Ennemoser and exchanged many e-mails. He is pretty down to earth. Maybe you should try to ring him and have a chat yourself?
Oh, and do read his book. Something I found mentioned there here certain tempi for music (BPM) he calls "C37" related and which I knew exceptionally well from my DJ days as bing especially "dancable". He mentions certain frequencies as being especially "sonorous" something that matches with other research that I have seen and which suggests that the standardised a' at 440Hz actually is not a pleasant frequency and a notably lower setting is desirable. In fact, research has shown a pitch of a' at 440Hz to be stress inducing, one at 432Hz relaxing.
There is plenty of stuff to do with the production and reproduction of music that seems alogical at first (like for example when damping a dominant and measurable resonance which was inaudible or nearly so becomes much more audible after we have actually damped it (using the wrong methode).
I shall retain the right to be sceptical not only of that which seems violate orthodox technocrat views, but also of these sameselve views too and if a conflict arise between the two to "make full use of all the demonstrable evidence--and of nothing but the demonstrable evidence.".....
Sayonara
Lusso5 said:
Then MAYBE it may be worthwhile to stop reading and start experimenting. I have approached such things AS C37 with extreme prejudice (I am after all a traditionally trained EE), however I felt I needed to try this (see my comments in the ETM "review" of C37). Rest assured, even when coating PCB's it does not only change perception. But then, leaving most screews out of a PCB and all but one of the remaining somewhat loose (trickey that) also changes the sound often drastically so, the SOUND, not the PERCEPTION of it.
For what it's worth, any chip with FET's is a tension/pressure sensor. Be it a DAC, a FET op-Amp, a Digital filter with CMOS based logic et al. Electrolytic capacitors especially but also many film capacitors make good condensor mikes (poor frequency response admittedly).
Lusso5 said:
Well, a skeptic actually WOULD try it. At any extent, i have talked many times to Mr. Ennemoser and exchanged many e-mails. He is pretty down to earth. Maybe you should try to ring him and have a chat yourself?
Oh, and do read his book. Something I found mentioned there here certain tempi for music (BPM) he calls "C37" related and which I knew exceptionally well from my DJ days as bing especially "dancable". He mentions certain frequencies as being especially "sonorous" something that matches with other research that I have seen and which suggests that the standardised a' at 440Hz actually is not a pleasant frequency and a notably lower setting is desirable. In fact, research has shown a pitch of a' at 440Hz to be stress inducing, one at 432Hz relaxing.
There is plenty of stuff to do with the production and reproduction of music that seems alogical at first (like for example when damping a dominant and measurable resonance which was inaudible or nearly so becomes much more audible after we have actually damped it (using the wrong methode).
I shall retain the right to be sceptical not only of that which seems violate orthodox technocrat views, but also of these sameselve views too and if a conflict arise between the two to "make full use of all the demonstrable evidence--and of nothing but the demonstrable evidence.".....
Sayonara
The whole problem with C37 is its unjustifiably high price. This alone makes it appear to be just another ridiculously priced rip off that abound in audio like nowhere else. If, in fact, it does make a demonstrable beneficial difference when applied to so many different things, then there must be some coatings that are even better for each specific application. Will someone please come up with these formulations and sell them at a reasonable price.
Konnichiwa,
Hmmm. You make the ASSUMPTION that the price is unjustifiably high or assert it is so, according to a certain criteria you decided. Would you care to give the a justifiable price, based on what you know about what is in the lacquer and how it is made?
Why don't you volounteer? You could make a fortune by making all these coatings and sell them at 1/4 of the C37 price....
Or could it be that if it WAS that easy someone would have already done it?
Note that the claims are NOT that C37 damps resonances. You can find all sorts of goop that does that and does not bring the desired result.
The problem is that we have a certain approach to the subject from certain quarters. To them it must be bunk and if they cannot simply proove that it's bunk they can point "look at the price, it must be bunk or if not it is way too expensive anyway.". They then refuse to try it and insist that there must be a way to make the same compound for less that the current cost.
Of course, any compensation for R&D is not considered (and empirical stuff like getting the mixture of a laquer "just so" takes a lot of time and loads of batches of throwaways).
Is the cost unjustified? I personally feel the cost is justified in the context of my mods. A small bottle of C37 lasts for many modified players, so once applied to a per unit basis the cost of C37 is low. A large bottle of C37 goes across many, many speaker chassis, so the cost again is applied over a large number of items, so the per driver cost is more or less negligable in the context of the full product calculation and in the context of my time applying the stuff. Should I use a product like Dammar which is much inferior in operation for the sake of a few Euros per driver?
Now any potential enduser must also ask himself if he wishes to save a few dollar by byuing "Boomjuice", "Dammar" or "Latex" pain and applying it to their driver, not being certain of the results or if they want to use something that works pretty well and reliable.
Of course, most people will not mind throwing away a few pairs of drivers untill they get it right and it would of course still be very cost efficient, as drivers are ever so much cheaper than a small bottle of C37 @ $ 60, so I won't mind.
I said it before, everyone is free to try whatever they want to. I often prefer to learn from others experiences instead of making my own mistakes, but that again is my personal perogative.
Sayonara
johninCR said:
Hmmm. You make the ASSUMPTION that the price is unjustifiably high or assert it is so, according to a certain criteria you decided. Would you care to give the a justifiable price, based on what you know about what is in the lacquer and how it is made?
johninCR said:
Why don't you volounteer? You could make a fortune by making all these coatings and sell them at 1/4 of the C37 price....
Or could it be that if it WAS that easy someone would have already done it?
Note that the claims are NOT that C37 damps resonances. You can find all sorts of goop that does that and does not bring the desired result.
The problem is that we have a certain approach to the subject from certain quarters. To them it must be bunk and if they cannot simply proove that it's bunk they can point "look at the price, it must be bunk or if not it is way too expensive anyway.". They then refuse to try it and insist that there must be a way to make the same compound for less that the current cost.
Of course, any compensation for R&D is not considered (and empirical stuff like getting the mixture of a laquer "just so" takes a lot of time and loads of batches of throwaways).
Is the cost unjustified? I personally feel the cost is justified in the context of my mods. A small bottle of C37 lasts for many modified players, so once applied to a per unit basis the cost of C37 is low. A large bottle of C37 goes across many, many speaker chassis, so the cost again is applied over a large number of items, so the per driver cost is more or less negligable in the context of the full product calculation and in the context of my time applying the stuff. Should I use a product like Dammar which is much inferior in operation for the sake of a few Euros per driver?
Now any potential enduser must also ask himself if he wishes to save a few dollar by byuing "Boomjuice", "Dammar" or "Latex" pain and applying it to their driver, not being certain of the results or if they want to use something that works pretty well and reliable.
Of course, most people will not mind throwing away a few pairs of drivers untill they get it right and it would of course still be very cost efficient, as drivers are ever so much cheaper than a small bottle of C37 @ $ 60, so I won't mind.
I said it before, everyone is free to try whatever they want to. I often prefer to learn from others experiences instead of making my own mistakes, but that again is my personal perogative.
Sayonara
write an email to Mr. Kremer and ask about the ingredients Ennemoser usually buys, and what amount: http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/
This will tell us what he uses to make is voodoo Lack.
Actually, coating development is pretty cheap. The drivers that have to be thrown away aren't as cheap, though. But as planet 10 has shown time and again, you can get some pretty interesting drivers for not a whole lot of $$$.
As far as cost estimation, you don't really need to know exactly what's in there- if you take the generic description and assume the most expensive possible materials, then go to a standard 5x markup, you can arrive at what some would consider a reasonable price. The costliest soluble resins run about $20 per pound. That's about $0.045 per gram. Solvents are much, much less expensive, essentially free compared to the resin price. If you estimate the specific gravity as 1 (probably correct to within 10-15%), then it's pretty easy to see what the maximum possible manufacturing cost is and what a "reasonable" price by normal manufacturing standards might be.
My own opinion is that a price is reasonable if people are willing to pay it. If this guy can find willing buyers for what he's selling and at the price he's asking, then why should he sell for less?
As far as cost estimation, you don't really need to know exactly what's in there- if you take the generic description and assume the most expensive possible materials, then go to a standard 5x markup, you can arrive at what some would consider a reasonable price. The costliest soluble resins run about $20 per pound. That's about $0.045 per gram. Solvents are much, much less expensive, essentially free compared to the resin price. If you estimate the specific gravity as 1 (probably correct to within 10-15%), then it's pretty easy to see what the maximum possible manufacturing cost is and what a "reasonable" price by normal manufacturing standards might be.
My own opinion is that a price is reasonable if people are willing to pay it. If this guy can find willing buyers for what he's selling and at the price he's asking, then why should he sell for less?
Konnichiwa,
HOW DO YOU KNOW? You seem to have significant information beyond those available to me.... You assume that the profit is "oscene", however on what basis? Becuase it's a small bottle of something? That means it cannot be expensive to make?
Or do you know how to make C37, have done all the calculations and decided it was overpriced? If so, why not offer your own at halve the price?
Sayonara
thoriated said:He'd still be making an obscene profit either way
HOW DO YOU KNOW? You seem to have significant information beyond those available to me.... You assume that the profit is "oscene", however on what basis? Becuase it's a small bottle of something? That means it cannot be expensive to make?
Or do you know how to make C37, have done all the calculations and decided it was overpriced? If so, why not offer your own at halve the price?
Sayonara
If there was something in C37 that was expensive and would help justify its cost you better believe it would be stated so in the marketing. Regarding R&D recovery, of course that is justified, but I'm sure a lot more R&D costs go into commercial coatings that are priced at $20/gallon or less.
If I had sufficient knowledge to develop something better, I would. Plus I have a conscience, so the price would be reasonable, not something so absurd that I could mix up a 5 gallon batch and make enough money to live on for a year. This is no different from the wooden volume control knobs that someone sells for over $100 ea. People get ripped off every day all over the world. Just because it's done doesn't make it right or even moral.
If I had sufficient knowledge to develop something better, I would. Plus I have a conscience, so the price would be reasonable, not something so absurd that I could mix up a 5 gallon batch and make enough money to live on for a year. This is no different from the wooden volume control knobs that someone sells for over $100 ea. People get ripped off every day all over the world. Just because it's done doesn't make it right or even moral.
Have to agree with KYW here. After all, what would justify the cost of some high-end speakers if it weren't for R&D costs? Certainly the speakers in an $ 100,000 EgglestonWorks speaker couldn't run more than a few grand... .
I find it interesting that people are so up in arms about this subject. So much so that I might have to invest some time into researching this Ennemoser Theory. ...
Things are getting interesting, now just wait when this Ennemoser turns out to believe in scientology or something similar....
I find it interesting that people are so up in arms about this subject. So much so that I might have to invest some time into researching this Ennemoser Theory. ...
Things are getting interesting, now just wait when this Ennemoser turns out to believe in scientology or something similar....
http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/bindem01.htm
instrument makers love to use stuff like propolis and "Lärchenterpentin" (I understand why, i have those in my workshop) but they are not really cheap.
Hi,
That's Terebinthina Laricina in Latin ( an extract from the Laricina tree) or Larch Turpentine in English.
Not surprisingly Mr. Ennemoser is Austrian and just happens to live right on the spot where this tree grows in the wild...
Beschreibung:
Transparente, goldgelbe Flüssigkeit; manchmal mit einem Grünstich (bei besonders frischer Ware).
Bestandteile:
Lärchenharz, Balsamterpentinöl, Alpha- / Beta-Pinen.
One down...
Any more to go?
Cheers,
That's Terebinthina Laricina in Latin ( an extract from the Laricina tree) or Larch Turpentine in English.
Not surprisingly Mr. Ennemoser is Austrian and just happens to live right on the spot where this tree grows in the wild...
Beschreibung:
Transparente, goldgelbe Flüssigkeit; manchmal mit einem Grünstich (bei besonders frischer Ware).
Bestandteile:
Lärchenharz, Balsamterpentinöl, Alpha- / Beta-Pinen.
One down...
Any more to go?
Cheers,
As far as I'm concerned the $100K speaker is in the same boat, but not to the same extent as C37, since I'm sure 10 gallons of C37 doesn't have anywhere near a few grand in cost. I really can't believe you guys are defending this guy. We're talking about 10 gallons equalling the construction cost of a nice house or an expensive hand built exotic sports car. The con artists need to be run out of the audio business, not defended.
Exactly. Wether the 'inventor' believes himself or not, at these prices (over $3800 per kg), this is nothing more than a con! 
It's only slightly better than for instance the "Bybee Quantum Purifiers" because C37 lack actually does some good on for instance a speaker cone. However, so does every other lacque or varnish...
I really like Klang&Ton, but the graphs shown on C37 are completely useless. If they had some balls, they should have done the same test with the three cheapest varnish they could find and publish the graph on the opposite page of the C37 results.
It's only slightly better than for instance the "Bybee Quantum Purifiers" because C37 lack actually does some good on for instance a speaker cone. However, so does every other lacque or varnish...
I really like Klang&Ton, but the graphs shown on C37 are completely useless. If they had some balls, they should have done the same test with the three cheapest varnish they could find and publish the graph on the opposite page of the C37 results.