badman said:
Hi Earl:
IME most good woodglues don't glue as hard as you're implying. Do you have a specific glue you're thinking of? Titebond 2 is my favorite (better than 3), and dries to something very similar to hardened gum- thick and strong, but can bend under force.
And I hope you don't get this post until your vacation's over, stop checking in, markus will be here when you get back
I'm back - vacations with kids are seldom vacations at all!!
I've only used the cheap old wood glues that seemed to get rock hard when finally dried. I will have to try titebond as if it's what you say thats just the ticket. My only point was that totally rigid structures might not be what one wants. A little give with a lot of damping is IMO a much better idea.
gedlee said:
Mostly not, but the surface integrity is much easier to degrade longer-term than deeper into the surface. I've seen 'gorilla glue' tear the smooth face off MDF leaving almost the entirety of the surface untouched, with only a <.5mm removal of material at the glue joint. Wood glue used right will hold up to more abuse than the wood itself, basically acting like a resinous member (which is exactly what you want in terms of the damping).
Make sure to use Titebond II, not I or III. It's much nicer.
Not really or certainly not always true. Joints can be a major source of motion in which case the glue, which is what is being "moved" will have a significant effect on the damping. But it is true that the stiffness of the joint needs to be comparable to the stiffness of the panel for this to be true, but thats not hard to do. Thats why I opt for joints that aren't super rigid (screws and rabits) with glues that aren't supper hard. Let the joint move a little with some well damped glue and the entire structure will be better damped.
I have done the walls in my rooms like this for years. Most people look at the construction and think that I am crazy because everything is so limp - not solid at all. But then the glues are well damped and the structure ends up being likewise. Door frames in my rooms don't even attach to the walls They are simply glued in place (have had a few problems with this, but all in all it works well.)
Of course you can't do this if any of the joints carry a load, but this can be avoided with a little fore thought.
I have done the walls in my rooms like this for years. Most people look at the construction and think that I am crazy because everything is so limp - not solid at all. But then the glues are well damped and the structure ends up being likewise. Door frames in my rooms don't even attach to the walls They are simply glued in place (have had a few problems with this, but all in all it works well.)
Of course you can't do this if any of the joints carry a load, but this can be avoided with a little fore thought.
Procedure:
1) Attache door frame to structure with accesable screws, hang doors.
2) use "Great Stuff" (expanding polyurethane foam) all the way arround the door sealing it off. This gap would be about 1" by 10" all the way arround the door. I use 10" jams because my walls are double thickness.
When cured very well - days later. Pull out all the screws. The door will stay in place (most of the time) and will be very well damped. If slamed, it won't even ring or shake the walls.
BUT, it does sometimes want to move when you use very heavy doors - like I do, solid Oak. Don't use doors that are wide if they are heavy as the "load" when open will deflect the door jams and binding can occur. Often a single screw can alleviate this problem if the right location and direction for this reinforcment is found. It took me about 5 trials at several locations in different directions to find the right one, but it worked. Even broke the screw once - had to drill it out and get a stronger one. As you can imagine the correct angle was up and back to carry the load when the door was open. When closed this screw did nothing.
Did I mention that I use 3/4" Oak ply suspended by strings for the ceiling.
1) Attache door frame to structure with accesable screws, hang doors.
2) use "Great Stuff" (expanding polyurethane foam) all the way arround the door sealing it off. This gap would be about 1" by 10" all the way arround the door. I use 10" jams because my walls are double thickness.
When cured very well - days later. Pull out all the screws. The door will stay in place (most of the time) and will be very well damped. If slamed, it won't even ring or shake the walls.
BUT, it does sometimes want to move when you use very heavy doors - like I do, solid Oak. Don't use doors that are wide if they are heavy as the "load" when open will deflect the door jams and binding can occur. Often a single screw can alleviate this problem if the right location and direction for this reinforcment is found. It took me about 5 trials at several locations in different directions to find the right one, but it worked. Even broke the screw once - had to drill it out and get a stronger one. As you can imagine the correct angle was up and back to carry the load when the door was open. When closed this screw did nothing.
Did I mention that I use 3/4" Oak ply suspended by strings for the ceiling.
[semi-off-topic]
Badman said:
You've said this a couple of times: could you elaborate? I have no connection to Titebond and don't care which people use, but I have been using Titebond III for a while now and like:
- long open time
- good grab when using rubbed joints
- waterproof
- water cleanup
What is better about T II?
[[/semi-off-topic]
Regards.
Aengus
Badman said:
You've said this a couple of times: could you elaborate? I have no connection to Titebond and don't care which people use, but I have been using Titebond III for a while now and like:
- long open time
- good grab when using rubbed joints
- waterproof
- water cleanup
What is better about T II?
[[/semi-off-topic]
Regards.
Aengus
Aengus said:
I prefer the working properties of the titebond II, being somewhat more stable, and tends to cure slightly softer, and it has the same positives you mention about the III. III is more waterproof apparently, but that's hardly relevant for loudspeakers as water damage of the glue would be the last thing on your mind if your stereo were submerged.
Ed LaFontaine said:
Open jointed in 4x4 sections. Sometimes 2x2. But always with just chaulking between the pieces. I use standard hung ceiling channel (mostly), but I hang it with nylon chord, not steel wire. Braided nylon cord has amazing damping properties and as any sailor will tell you holds a tremendous load.
gedlee said:
The way I build things, the glue could almost be considered icing on the cake. I glue it up with alot of thick poly glue, then clamp it down, then either use screws or a nail gun in a alternating V pattern to hold it together. Then I move on to the next piece. I took me about 45 minutes to assemble my last tapped horn with a nail gun once the pieces were ready.
I would say that there wouldn't be a big problem if you embedded them up to the front baffle, but flush mount might be a problem. The speakers don't have a flat front face as the foam plug sticks out beyond the bafle. Thin grills would not be a big problem though - mine are all behind the video screen, which is no different than a grille cloth.
The compression driver to the front baffle is a bit of a distance for a normal wall however, and these are not shallow woofers.
What I would do is just mount them in the wall as far as they would go and then hang a curtain in front of them. That puts the curtain out about 6-8 inches. Put damping material all arround the speakers, on the wall, but still behind the curtain. From the room it just looks like a wall with cloth on it instead of painted drywall - not uncommon at all. Let your wife pick the cloth color (but not the density!! It needs to be thin and open).
The compression driver to the front baffle is a bit of a distance for a normal wall however, and these are not shallow woofers.
What I would do is just mount them in the wall as far as they would go and then hang a curtain in front of them. That puts the curtain out about 6-8 inches. Put damping material all arround the speakers, on the wall, but still behind the curtain. From the room it just looks like a wall with cloth on it instead of painted drywall - not uncommon at all. Let your wife pick the cloth color (but not the density!! It needs to be thin and open).
We're about to reach the finishing line by building the crossover. Place all parts loosly on the back panel. Bend all wires in their final position and insert them into the luster terminals:
Check if everything fits and all wires fit deep enough into the luster terminals. Then drill pilot holes for the luster terminals (and the big inductor) and screw them down.
Bend some jumpers from 18 - 24 gauge wire:
Apply glue to the individual parts and then thighten the luster terminals:
I've used vinyl adhesive caulk. Hopefully it'll hold the inductors in place.
Best, Markus
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Check if everything fits and all wires fit deep enough into the luster terminals. Then drill pilot holes for the luster terminals (and the big inductor) and screw them down.
Bend some jumpers from 18 - 24 gauge wire:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Apply glue to the individual parts and then thighten the luster terminals:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've used vinyl adhesive caulk. Hopefully it'll hold the inductors in place.
Best, Markus
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