i know that some people can't hear the difference between one pre-amp and another...nor between one driver tube and the other. But that website you suggested was written by someone that seems to claim that there are different sounds from different tubes. Below are some excerpts from that website;
["When replacing any stock Russian, Chinese, or East Europe tube with any of these vintage NOS types, you will notice immediately that the midrange glare is gone. Gone too is that honky, boxy quality, and the tiring upper midrange screech that current production tubes are famous for."]
below is a second excerpt;
["These tubes are usually characterized by an impressive open "air" at the top end. The soundstage is large, even in mono applications these tubes have a great 3-D image. The midrange is ruler flat, and the bass is tight and accurate. ... These tubes have a fine sense of dynamics, and most are impressively quiet. These are not "warm" tubes, and to some ears their lack of midrange warmth may be heard as bright."]
I can certainly hear the difference when I change out the center driver tube in my amp. All the tubes so far sound great but there's definitely one tube that is amazing. Since 1985 I have had the pleasure of hearing myriad configurations of ultra high end stuff like Krell, Pass Labs, Audio Research, Mchintosh, conrad johnson, Nautilus, Wilson Audio, Martin Logan, Sonus Faber, etcetera. For many years I use to demo, sell and install systems approaching $200,000. My ears are very well trained so it's very interesting when someone doesn't hear the difference between the sound of one driver tube and another.
My amp is not the best I've ever heard but I would say the sound quality of it is comparable to the amps I've heard that are in the $4K to $6K range. And in my amp, changing out the center drive stage tube makes a bigger difference than changing out any of the other tubes. It's an awesome feature to play with.
It would make sense that not all ears are created equal. It's like eyes, some eyes have varying degrees of color blindness.
I call ********.
The excerpts are typical noodling comments from sales staff being paid on turnover and with no technical understanding or ethical capacity.
The fact you attach sonic value to $ value speaks volumes, the list of "ultra high end" items includess a who's who of overhyped effects machines, and your credentials as a salesman are probably not the best to use when attesting to a certain prowess as that profession (and I use that term very loosely) does not have a long and happy history of honesty and technical understanding. You may be the exception, but the current questions indicate otherwise
I'm glad you enjoy swapping a tube and trying others. You are to be encouraged in this as enjoyment is, after all, the reason for listening in the first place. The perception you have of a change may indeed be real, but there is no fundamental technical reason for it except if the amp or the component is spectacularly flawed.
Hence, its impossible to recommend a particular tube that may exhibit even more flawed behaviour for you. I suggest you buy some, turn the lights down a bit, and try them all out.
The excerpts are typical noodling comments from sales staff being paid on turnover and with no technical understanding or ethical capacity.
The fact you attach sonic value to $ value speaks volumes, the list of "ultra high end" items includess a who's who of overhyped effects machines, and your credentials as a salesman are probably not the best to use when attesting to a certain prowess as that profession (and I use that term very loosely) does not have a long and happy history of honesty and technical understanding. You may be the exception, but the current questions indicate otherwise
I'm glad you enjoy swapping a tube and trying others. You are to be encouraged in this as enjoyment is, after all, the reason for listening in the first place. The perception you have of a change may indeed be real, but there is no fundamental technical reason for it except if the amp or the component is spectacularly flawed.
Hence, its impossible to recommend a particular tube that may exhibit even more flawed behaviour for you. I suggest you buy some, turn the lights down a bit, and try them all out.
I must agree, i don't like too many salesmen either. I don't think being a former salesman makes me good at anything...the point was that as a result of being in Hi Fi sales for years, I had the unique opportunity to hear myriad configurations of ultra Hi Fi equipment. That kind of ear training was priceless. Combine that with the myriad live performances (unplugged) that I have experienced and I can say that I know what the instruments are supposed to sound like.
While I agree that price tag is not always directly correlated to sound quality, the very best system I ever heard had a price tag of about $60,000 (including the room treatment). My unique experience has shown me that price tag has some legitimate correlation but the reason the correlation is not always reliable is because good marketing can sometimes cause the price of an item to be inflated beyond it's true worth. And I promise you that this sixty K system was stunning....it's not a myth that some systems reveal the relative position and distance between the instruments with alarming accuracy. 3D was an understatement with that system.
I am very intrigued by the suggestion of a BH instead of an AU. This is a tough crowd but I'll still ask....any specific BH valves that y'all recommend instead of me just shooting darts at BH tubes I'd rather roll the dice that a realistic recommendation can be obtained from the internet
I don't know man. The author claims vast tonal differences between the same tube of different brands, yet uses the exact same tonal description for the 12AX7, 12AT7 and 12AU7. Hmmm
There's one 12AT7 I can recommend to stay away form. The EH 12AT7 longplate. Microphonic as hell.
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... I'd rather roll the dice that a realistic recommendation can be obtained from the internet
Haha! A Sure sign of distorted reality!
I'd suggest you just buy a few, second hand or new, different brands and configurations and see if any pushes your buttons. In the context of a $6k system, a few small tubes are negligible.
You can then satisfy yourself whether any of them have the effect you are looking for. Any surplus or fails can be on-sold to defray expenses - there is always another suc... erm, buyer looking for the next something special
Have fun
I have four tubes now to test against each other and so far the Mullard CV4003 is the very best by far. I mean all four tubes sound amazing on this amp but man, I very seriously doubt I will find a better tube... but it will be fun to test and accumulate a bunch of tubes to see if anything comes close to the remarkable CV4003... what a miracle that tube is...and I would not trade this amp in for any amp under $6K ;-)
....geez, there goes that stupid price tag thing again ;-)
....geez, there goes that stupid price tag thing again ;-)
just in case anyone finds this topic while searching for a similar question to the one i had.
12AX7 Comparison of Current Made Tubes | Amplified Parts
that link above further supports my findings. The test I did at home was done with a calibrated RTA and seven different tubes. The RTA revealed that some tubes are louder than others (or less loud) at certain frequencies.
Someone seemed to imply that there would be no difference in volume level at the high frequencies. The volume was measured in decibels and tubes do indeed differ in the curve they produce. The difference, however, is slight such as 3 decibels plus or minus. Not only did some tubes measure louder in certain high frequencies but the difference was audible to my ear not just measurable be the RTA.
12AX7 Comparison of Current Made Tubes | Amplified Parts
that link above further supports my findings. The test I did at home was done with a calibrated RTA and seven different tubes. The RTA revealed that some tubes are louder than others (or less loud) at certain frequencies.
Someone seemed to imply that there would be no difference in volume level at the high frequencies. The volume was measured in decibels and tubes do indeed differ in the curve they produce. The difference, however, is slight such as 3 decibels plus or minus. Not only did some tubes measure louder in certain high frequencies but the difference was audible to my ear not just measurable be the RTA.
Draw us a graph of the frequency response curve you want the tube to have.
Do you want a flat FR up to 10Khz and then a step up by 3db or more above that?
Or maybe a slope up to 10Khz and then a flat FR above that?
Won't the feedback loop on your amp compensate for the minor FR deviations any tube you find might have?
Do you want a flat FR up to 10Khz and then a step up by 3db or more above that?
Or maybe a slope up to 10Khz and then a flat FR above that?
Won't the feedback loop on your amp compensate for the minor FR deviations any tube you find might have?
OK. High impedance guitar circuit intended to provide a lumpy frequency response. Hardly surprising that different valves give slightly different results. Says precisely nothing whatsoever about how the valve itself amplifies different frequencies; of course any competent tech would know this.
Why isn't this thread in the Instruments and Amps forum? Placed here in Tubes-Valves it might mislead a newbie into thinking that valves amplify different audio frequencies by different amounts.
Why isn't this thread in the Instruments and Amps forum? Placed here in Tubes-Valves it might mislead a newbie into thinking that valves amplify different audio frequencies by different amounts.
It will be simple things like Miller capacitance and anode impedance. High impedance circuits, as used in guitar amps, are more sensitive to these. Any valve will amplify 5Hz, 500Hz and 50kHz in exactly the same way but the circuit can introduce variation. Audio valves work from DC to around VHF; from there you start to get transit time effects.
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