Re: NW's not the only one
I did almost this in the formative days in hifi. A pr of Magnepans (the 1st gen of the babies -- can't remember the designagion) -- a fairly benign load and about that efficient. Amps were AB Bipolar, 1 rated at 20 W (NAD 3020) and 1 at 200 (1st gen Carver cube). Played with music until audible clipping. The 20 W amp played louder (sounded better too), so you can see that power ratings have to be approached with caution -- as do any specifications, espcially the scalar ones usually bandied about and often meaningless.
dave
Christopher said:
I did almost this in the formative days in hifi. A pr of Magnepans (the 1st gen of the babies -- can't remember the designagion) -- a fairly benign load and about that efficient. Amps were AB Bipolar, 1 rated at 20 W (NAD 3020) and 1 at 200 (1st gen Carver cube). Played with music until audible clipping. The 20 W amp played louder (sounded better too), so you can see that power ratings have to be approached with caution -- as do any specifications, espcially the scalar ones usually bandied about and often meaningless.
dave
AS ALWAYS...
Hi,
Specs are only meaningful to those able to read them correctly...
As always Ohm's law plays a big part in the power race and I'll always be able to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that low power amps stand a better chance to sound better than the higher powered brethren...
Simple physics,
Hi,
Specs are only meaningful to those able to read them correctly...
As always Ohm's law plays a big part in the power race and I'll always be able to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that low power amps stand a better chance to sound better than the higher powered brethren...
Simple physics,
Re: WOW...
On average, yes. Though you still want to be able to reproduce the peaks without a lot of clipping.
Sure. You start.
Ok, just off the top of my head, if we've got 84dB at 1 meter with 1 watt, a 20 watt amp should give you another uh... 10 x log20... 13dB so 13 + 84 = 97dB. And unless we're listening to just one speaker, add another what, 3dB for the second speaker? Now we're up to 100dB peak. Though if we move the listening position from 1 meter to 2 meters, that takes what, 6dB off? So at 2 meters we're at 94dB peak unclipped.
That look right to you?
Or rain as the case may be.
Know what you mean. I just can't get past that "inside my head" thing (though it was great back when I was getting stoned and listening to things like Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love ). And the "out of head" processors that I've heard just don't sit well with me. Even binaural recordings.
But other than those caveats, a good pair of cans like the Lambdas can be pretty scary.
Everything has its place.
se
fdegrove said:
On average, yes. Though you still want to be able to reproduce the peaks without a lot of clipping.
Sure. You start.
Ok, just off the top of my head, if we've got 84dB at 1 meter with 1 watt, a 20 watt amp should give you another uh... 10 x log20... 13dB so 13 + 84 = 97dB. And unless we're listening to just one speaker, add another what, 3dB for the second speaker? Now we're up to 100dB peak. Though if we move the listening position from 1 meter to 2 meters, that takes what, 6dB off? So at 2 meters we're at 94dB peak unclipped.
That look right to you?
Misconceptions reign...
Or rain as the case may be.
P.S. I don't like headphones...but I miss my Lambdas though...
Know what you mean. I just can't get past that "inside my head" thing (though it was great back when I was getting stoned and listening to things like Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love
). And the "out of head" processors that I've heard just don't sit well with me. Even binaural recordings.But other than those caveats, a good pair of cans like the Lambdas can be pretty scary.
Everything has its place.
se
It's So Easy A Kid Could Do It...
In my experience, the best way to discern component sonic differences is "on the fly".
With the earth wire disconnected from the tip of your soldering iron, components can be swapped in real time whilst playing music.
This gives an immediate appreciation of the sonic differences of components, and once heard is not forgotten.
Once you have done this enough times, you will learn to reliably discern sonic changes attributable to component changes, including changing types and values.
You can even hear component direction and wire direction this way.
I have done this for years, and I find it is very good for voicing an amplifier or speaker.
Good speakers and cable make the job easier, but you should be able to hear differences through an old 3in1 speaker if you try, or if your ears are up to it.
Building two amplifiers is not practical or required, and changeover time can be too long to make this approach reliable.
Once you have arrived at what you think is an improvement by OTF changes, run a few favorite recordings and listen for deeper changes - to the inexperienced just about any change can be regarded as an improvement.
With experience changes can instantly be ascertained to be beneficial or not, and reliably.
This process is really not that hard to do, and any subsequent BLT's will confirm the initial findings of the experienced listener.
Eric.
IanHarvey said:
In my experience, the best way to discern component sonic differences is "on the fly".
With the earth wire disconnected from the tip of your soldering iron, components can be swapped in real time whilst playing music.
This gives an immediate appreciation of the sonic differences of components, and once heard is not forgotten.
Once you have done this enough times, you will learn to reliably discern sonic changes attributable to component changes, including changing types and values.
You can even hear component direction and wire direction this way.
I have done this for years, and I find it is very good for voicing an amplifier or speaker.
Good speakers and cable make the job easier, but you should be able to hear differences through an old 3in1 speaker if you try, or if your ears are up to it.
Building two amplifiers is not practical or required, and changeover time can be too long to make this approach reliable.
Once you have arrived at what you think is an improvement by OTF changes, run a few favorite recordings and listen for deeper changes - to the inexperienced just about any change can be regarded as an improvement.
With experience changes can instantly be ascertained to be beneficial or not, and reliably.
This process is really not that hard to do, and any subsequent BLT's will confirm the initial findings of the experienced listener.
Eric.
Re: It's So Easy A Kid Could Do It...
Sure; I've done the same. But a skeptic would quite rightly point out that I know when I'm listening to the £5 capacitor and when I'm listening to the 10p one; the possibility of my beliefs clouding my judgment hasn't been eliminated.
I've tried rigging up arrangements with latching push switches (you push the switch really fast for a bit until you've lost track of what state it's in), but it ends up with too much crap attached to the amp on long leads - crosstalk and instability here we come.
Also, this methodology doesn't really work for claims like "I changed output transistors from 2N3055s to MJ21194s", or "I swapped all my resistors for RC55's", as the time taken to swap is too great. As for testing whether silver solder is better than ordinary solder - any ideas, anyone?
Cheers
IH
mrfeedback said:
Sure; I've done the same. But a skeptic would quite rightly point out that I know when I'm listening to the £5 capacitor and when I'm listening to the 10p one; the possibility of my beliefs clouding my judgment hasn't been eliminated.
I've tried rigging up arrangements with latching push switches (you push the switch really fast for a bit until you've lost track of what state it's in), but it ends up with too much crap attached to the amp on long leads - crosstalk and instability here we come.
Also, this methodology doesn't really work for claims like "I changed output transistors from 2N3055s to MJ21194s", or "I swapped all my resistors for RC55's", as the time taken to swap is too great. As for testing whether silver solder is better than ordinary solder - any ideas, anyone?
Cheers
IH
Christopher, sit down and listen
First, I don't have to prove you anything.
I'm just not in the mood.
Second, I've told you a Chord 1200 amp had a really bad time
driving a pair of B&W 805 Signature speakers.
Those speakers seam to suck current.
Whant better proof?
If you know what I'm talking about, you would be impressed, as I did.
And oh, while you're fiddling with numbers, specs and plots, much faster I connect the deam amp and speakers, listen to them and get to a conclusion.
And it's not enough to be able to drive to have good sound quality.
That may degenerate in a desease, you know?
First, I don't have to prove you anything.
I'm just not in the mood.
Second, I've told you a Chord 1200 amp had a really bad time
driving a pair of B&W 805 Signature speakers.
Those speakers seam to suck current.
Whant better proof?
If you know what I'm talking about, you would be impressed, as I did.
And oh, while you're fiddling with numbers, specs and plots, much faster I connect the deam amp and speakers, listen to them and get to a conclusion.
And it's not enough to be able to drive to have good sound quality.
That may degenerate in a desease, you know?
Hi Ian Harvey,
Just two simple examples.
A change from two 2.2uf tantalum caps near the supply pins of an op-amp in the original preamp circuit for two 100uf electrolythics, bypassed under the circuit with 100nf ceramics.
Huge improvements.
And what about changing a crappy volume pot to a good one?
Just two simple examples.
A change from two 2.2uf tantalum caps near the supply pins of an op-amp in the original preamp circuit for two 100uf electrolythics, bypassed under the circuit with 100nf ceramics.
Huge improvements.
And what about changing a crappy volume pot to a good one?
Re: Re: It's So Easy A Kid Could Do It...
Change the transistors one channel, feed a mono signal via a Y-lead and have a listen.
Ignore the costings of any components - use only your ears.
Critics ignorant of the subject at hand will of course find fault with the methodology, but who gives a toss - it is your ears and your musical enjoyment that are the goals here.
I have been dealing with audio at board level for more than 25 years, and I don't have any trouble distinguishing sonics since a long time ago.
Critics saying that you cannot hear differences are only telling you that THEY cannot hear differences - simple.
The ultimate enjoyment factor is when you can put on a recording, lounge back on the couch and completely relax to the music.
I find that only self modified amps allow me that privilege, and despite aparent detail and extension, I am yet to find this in any standard amplifier.
Comments fom a suitably interested spouse or flatmate are always useful too.
Eric.
Make some interconnects using standard solder wire, or silver solder wire.IanHarvey said:
Change the transistors one channel, feed a mono signal via a Y-lead and have a listen.
Ignore the costings of any components - use only your ears.
Critics ignorant of the subject at hand will of course find fault with the methodology, but who gives a toss - it is your ears and your musical enjoyment that are the goals here.
I have been dealing with audio at board level for more than 25 years, and I don't have any trouble distinguishing sonics since a long time ago.
Critics saying that you cannot hear differences are only telling you that THEY cannot hear differences - simple.
The ultimate enjoyment factor is when you can put on a recording, lounge back on the couch and completely relax to the music.
I find that only self modified amps allow me that privilege, and despite aparent detail and extension, I am yet to find this in any standard amplifier.
Comments fom a suitably interested spouse or flatmate are always useful too.
Eric.
Yeeeeessssssss!!!
Bingo, Eric!
As always.
I have a friend that works with high-end.
He demonstrates, sells, goes to the customers houses, installs, etc.
He has proven me he has much more practice in HEARING systems than me, I admit.
That's what he does for living everyday.
Sometimes I get puzzled because he calls me attention for a particular aspect that's not right when we hear to a system.
I only notice that a moment after he called my attention.
Alone I wouldn't notice.
But he is right, he proved it many times.
So, that goes with plenty of practice.
It's not because a person doesn't hear the difference that we have
to take it for granted.
It's not so simple.
mrfeedback said:
Bingo, Eric!
As always.
I have a friend that works with high-end.
He demonstrates, sells, goes to the customers houses, installs, etc.
He has proven me he has much more practice in HEARING systems than me, I admit.
That's what he does for living everyday.
Sometimes I get puzzled because he calls me attention for a particular aspect that's not right when we hear to a system.
I only notice that a moment after he called my attention.
Alone I wouldn't notice.
But he is right, he proved it many times.
So, that goes with plenty of practice.
It's not because a person doesn't hear the difference that we have
to take it for granted.
It's not so simple.
I give up....
Boy can you guys mess up a simple example. First of all this thread was about whether or not you could hear any difference in quality at all between for example, my 2 class A mosfets (as long as they were both driven within the limits of the both of them) Then you come along and take a perfectly valid example, and start justifying the 20W as a better match for an 84db pair. How in the name of all that's holy, (wine) can you not take that example for how it's intended. If we, as a group cannot agree on whether anyone can hear a difference between those two amps, how can you come in and say 'well the 20W one will sound better' That has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the example. Nothing. I'm well and truly stunned. I for one doubt very much you can get the dynamic range for any serious classical music at any decent SPL for the quiet passages with this combo. And Carlos, how can you possibly tell me that it's quicker to box up an amp and bring it home, (or worse, build it from scratch) and connect it to a set of speakers, than it is to take a careful look through the specs. The great match between OTL's and ESL's is of course audible, but it is clearly theoritcal as well. Are you telling me that there is a possibility because of tube choice or component choice or layout, that I could ruin that? No absolutely not. I never claimed that you could find the 'match made in heaven' speaker/amp combo by looking at the specs, I said you could pick out a mismatch. If you guys are going to continue to run around claiming there is more to audio than voltage and current then there is no point in debating this further.
What you guys are doing now amounts to nothing more than group affirmation. "can you hear the difference Bob?" "Yep sure can, can you hear it Bill?" "oh yes, absolutely, night and day, I can't beleive what a difference it makes" Listen to what you like, make whatever changes you like, enjoy the difference it makes. All changes make a difference. The question is, is it truly audible? Like it or not, we have high end audio through the application of physics, pure and simple. Having my local shamen come over and expunge all the evil spirits from my system always makes it sound better. Can anyone disagree with that? It's a well accepted fact that demons will build up in CDP's much faster than in amps, but when ever the shamen comes over he always does the whole system. Come over to my house and just hear the difference, you'll be amazed. I'm due in a couple of weeks.
If you think that sounds ridiculous, why doesn't one of you tell me where to draw the line.
Nice to see you're back Fred, are you going to appologize to Jorge?
On second thought, you're right Frank, I am stupid, any intelligent individual would have abandoned this endevor long ago.
Chris
Boy can you guys mess up a simple example. First of all this thread was about whether or not you could hear any difference in quality at all between for example, my 2 class A mosfets (as long as they were both driven within the limits of the both of them) Then you come along and take a perfectly valid example, and start justifying the 20W as a better match for an 84db pair. How in the name of all that's holy, (wine) can you not take that example for how it's intended. If we, as a group cannot agree on whether anyone can hear a difference between those two amps, how can you come in and say 'well the 20W one will sound better' That has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the example. Nothing. I'm well and truly stunned. I for one doubt very much you can get the dynamic range for any serious classical music at any decent SPL for the quiet passages with this combo. And Carlos, how can you possibly tell me that it's quicker to box up an amp and bring it home, (or worse, build it from scratch) and connect it to a set of speakers, than it is to take a careful look through the specs. The great match between OTL's and ESL's is of course audible, but it is clearly theoritcal as well. Are you telling me that there is a possibility because of tube choice or component choice or layout, that I could ruin that? No absolutely not. I never claimed that you could find the 'match made in heaven' speaker/amp combo by looking at the specs, I said you could pick out a mismatch. If you guys are going to continue to run around claiming there is more to audio than voltage and current then there is no point in debating this further.
What you guys are doing now amounts to nothing more than group affirmation. "can you hear the difference Bob?" "Yep sure can, can you hear it Bill?" "oh yes, absolutely, night and day, I can't beleive what a difference it makes" Listen to what you like, make whatever changes you like, enjoy the difference it makes. All changes make a difference. The question is, is it truly audible? Like it or not, we have high end audio through the application of physics, pure and simple. Having my local shamen come over and expunge all the evil spirits from my system always makes it sound better. Can anyone disagree with that? It's a well accepted fact that demons will build up in CDP's much faster than in amps, but when ever the shamen comes over he always does the whole system. Come over to my house and just hear the difference, you'll be amazed. I'm due in a couple of weeks.
If you think that sounds ridiculous, why doesn't one of you tell me where to draw the line.
Nice to see you're back Fred, are you going to appologize to Jorge?
On second thought, you're right Frank, I am stupid, any intelligent individual would have abandoned this endevor long ago.
Chris
Re: I give up....
Yes, there is.
That's why a very competent electronics engineer can design a crap sounding device if he doesn't have a feeling for audio.
Chistopher, please, power doesn't have nothing to do with quality.
And don't thake things so seriously, we're only debating.
We can all learn something.
We just have to be open-minded.
I think in one thing you're right.
Someday someone should print this thread and make a book.
Christopher said:
Yes, there is.
That's why a very competent electronics engineer can design a crap sounding device if he doesn't have a feeling for audio.
Chistopher, please, power doesn't have nothing to do with quality.
And don't thake things so seriously, we're only debating.
We can all learn something.
We just have to be open-minded.
I think in one thing you're right.
Someday someone should print this thread and make a book.
Re: Yeeeeessssssss!!!
IOW you are both hearing the same wrong sounds, but he is more practised at discerning them in the room sound, and also he is more experienced at identifying the causes.
With practice you can do the same.
Try swapping particular components on the fly and you too will learn to characterise differing causes.
Eric.
carlosfm said:
IOW you are both hearing the same wrong sounds, but he is more practised at discerning them in the room sound, and also he is more experienced at identifying the causes.
With practice you can do the same.
Try swapping particular components on the fly and you too will learn to characterise differing causes.
Eric.
Hi Chris
This post is a personal advice for you, as my post doesn’t seam to be very welcomed in this forum...
Do a null test between your rotel amplifier and your otl, you can even use you ESL speakers as a load...I'm almost certain that the rotel amp measures a lot better. In the end you will learn that all the differences that you listen between both amplifiers are distortion and compression...
Everyone that uses studio compressor knows when a sound gets compress, it sound more defined and the bass sound stronger...but that difference was as improvement?
Nice to see that some one is trying to learn and the effort of NW, SY and my big friend Jorge wasn’t in vain
Cheers
Ricardo
This post is a personal advice for you, as my post doesn’t seam to be very welcomed in this forum...
Do a null test between your rotel amplifier and your otl, you can even use you ESL speakers as a load...I'm almost certain that the rotel amp measures a lot better. In the end you will learn that all the differences that you listen between both amplifiers are distortion and compression...
Everyone that uses studio compressor knows when a sound gets compress, it sound more defined and the bass sound stronger...but that difference was as improvement?
Nice to see that some one is trying to learn and the effort of NW, SY and my big friend Jorge wasn’t in vain
Cheers
Ricardo
physics...
Well... maby physics could explain the influence of different cable
types or topologies on gear.
To me this is one of the most obscure parts of audio.
Even the manufacturers can't properly explain it.
But there are audible differences.
Unfortunately, you have to try them, HEAR them.
You don't buy a cable because it looks nics, or because of the specs (I hope ).
Maby you can explain by physics, Christopher.
Well... maby physics could explain the influence of different cable
types or topologies on gear.
To me this is one of the most obscure parts of audio.
Even the manufacturers can't properly explain it.
But there are audible differences.
Unfortunately, you have to try them, HEAR them.
You don't buy a cable because it looks nics, or because of the specs (I hope
).Maby you can explain by physics, Christopher.
rickpt said:Everyone that uses studio compressor knows when a sound gets compress, it sound more defined and the bass sound stronger...but that difference was as improvement?
Ricardo
What???!
Ricardo, put that the other way around please!
I get vomits listening to FM Stereo stations these days...
I worked as a technitian on a local radio, in the end of the 80s, before dynamic compression, and at that time FM sounded much better to me.
And I have some CDs where I can detect dynamic compression.
It sounds horrible.
now we're getting somewhere
A little sanity at last.
I'd love to give it a try Ricardo, even if the results might make me cry. Right now my tinker time for audio is at 0 hours available time. It's my understanding that because OTL's do well with higer impedence loads, and higher capacitive loads that they actually are more accurate than most amps into ESL's. How does the OTL end up acting as a compressor?
Chris
BTW I don't have ESL's yet, I built the OTL for the future when I get some. Right now I'm driving some NHT ST4's.
A little sanity at last.
I'd love to give it a try Ricardo, even if the results might make me cry. Right now my tinker time for audio is at 0 hours available time. It's my understanding that because OTL's do well with higer impedence loads, and higher capacitive loads that they actually are more accurate than most amps into ESL's. How does the OTL end up acting as a compressor?
Chris
BTW I don't have ESL's yet, I built the OTL for the future when I get some. Right now I'm driving some NHT ST4's.
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