Thank you for responding!
I have recently assembled a pair of Manzanita prototypes and am ready to build the finished speakers. After finding your project it got me thinking about integrating some of your ideas.
While the Manzi's are very special when one considers the simplicity, cost and level of performance, as in all speakers, there are some tradeoffs. It looks like your project may have addressed some of them….specifically, more presence in the mid range and maybe more air/crispness in the upper range. I like the idea of adding another woofer but for now I think I would build the baffle taller and add the woofer and x-over adjustments later.
I went looking for the tweeter that you used and discovered that it's no longer produced.
This leads me to a couple of questions;
- I have a pair of Hiquphon tweeters (would need to figure out the exact model) and am wondering if it would be complicated to use those instead of Vifa product.
- If using the Hiquphon's is to complicated, can you recommend a replacement for the Vifa DX25's
Finally, do you have other threads where you are working on projects? If so, I'd very much like to follow your work. I am new to this, have limited technical knowledge and have really enjoyed following John B. and Pano's work with the Manzi's.
Thank you Kindly,
Marko
I have recently assembled a pair of Manzanita prototypes and am ready to build the finished speakers. After finding your project it got me thinking about integrating some of your ideas.
While the Manzi's are very special when one considers the simplicity, cost and level of performance, as in all speakers, there are some tradeoffs. It looks like your project may have addressed some of them….specifically, more presence in the mid range and maybe more air/crispness in the upper range. I like the idea of adding another woofer but for now I think I would build the baffle taller and add the woofer and x-over adjustments later.
I went looking for the tweeter that you used and discovered that it's no longer produced.
This leads me to a couple of questions;
- I have a pair of Hiquphon tweeters (would need to figure out the exact model) and am wondering if it would be complicated to use those instead of Vifa product.
- If using the Hiquphon's is to complicated, can you recommend a replacement for the Vifa DX25's
Finally, do you have other threads where you are working on projects? If so, I'd very much like to follow your work. I am new to this, have limited technical knowledge and have really enjoyed following John B. and Pano's work with the Manzi's.
Thank you Kindly,
Marko
Marko,
The tweeter replacement is for the DX25 :
Scan speak : D2604/830000 http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2604-830000.pdf
Vifa : DX25TG09-04 http://www.tymphany.com/files/DX25TG09-04 Rev 1_0.pdf
I have proposed and made a low cost version :
This crossover is out of date because I have done a better one since this version.
It's possible to do a three ways with the SLS315 + Vifa 3.5" + Hiquphon.
You can use my baffle. I give you a crossover, see below, from my data, you will have to do some level adjustments (R2/R3 and R5/R6). This crossover is optimized for a SDS134 and a DX25. But it will work well with your transducers. The crossover frequency is 500Hz and 3kHz.
You can see some of my projects and tweaks here, some are in French.
Let us know what you do.
Enjoy
The tweeter replacement is for the DX25 :
Scan speak : D2604/830000 http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2604-830000.pdf
Vifa : DX25TG09-04 http://www.tymphany.com/files/DX25TG09-04 Rev 1_0.pdf
I have proposed and made a low cost version :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This crossover is out of date because I have done a better one since this version.
It's possible to do a three ways with the SLS315 + Vifa 3.5" + Hiquphon.
You can use my baffle. I give you a crossover, see below, from my data, you will have to do some level adjustments (R2/R3 and R5/R6). This crossover is optimized for a SDS134 and a DX25. But it will work well with your transducers. The crossover frequency is 500Hz and 3kHz.
You can see some of my projects and tweaks here, some are in French.
Let us know what you do.
Enjoy
Attachments
Marko,
Just a little more information, the Vifa TC9FD18-08 and the SDS134 seem to have the same sensitivity, no change on the mid crossover (R2/R3).
Below a little evolution of the crossover with better phase between woofer and mid but I can't say the best sounding schematic.
Have Fun.
Just a little more information, the Vifa TC9FD18-08 and the SDS134 seem to have the same sensitivity, no change on the mid crossover (R2/R3).
Below a little evolution of the crossover with better phase between woofer and mid but I can't say the best sounding schematic.
Have Fun.
Attachments
Thank you.
Are you suggesting that the Vifa could be substituted for the SDS 134 by using this x-over?
One concern that I have in proceeding with your design is this. I'm using OTL mono amps and understand they do not do well with large impedance swings. I do not have experience with reading impedance graphs but it appears to me your design is very diferent then the Manzi's. The mono blocks are 100 watts each and have no problem driving the Manzi's. In fact, the lower region is much better with the OTL's then a class, A solid state, 80wpc (PSE) stereo amp that I own.
I really like the idea of starting with your design, then adding a second woofer later providing my mono's can drive them. (I have heard of a "auto transformer"? that may help the OTL's with impedence swings but am unfamiliar with it).
I hope my inquiries are not bothersome for you. Thanks again for your assistance.
Marko
Are you suggesting that the Vifa could be substituted for the SDS 134 by using this x-over?
One concern that I have in proceeding with your design is this. I'm using OTL mono amps and understand they do not do well with large impedance swings. I do not have experience with reading impedance graphs but it appears to me your design is very diferent then the Manzi's. The mono blocks are 100 watts each and have no problem driving the Manzi's. In fact, the lower region is much better with the OTL's then a class, A solid state, 80wpc (PSE) stereo amp that I own.
I really like the idea of starting with your design, then adding a second woofer later providing my mono's can drive them. (I have heard of a "auto transformer"? that may help the OTL's with impedence swings but am unfamiliar with it).
I hope my inquiries are not bothersome for you. Thanks again for your assistance.
Marko
In term of level, the two drivers (SDS134 and Vifa 1TC9FD18-08) are very similar. In term of response on the baffle, diffraction, the response could be very different because the vifa have less directivity in high frequency. The Vifa is a better driver in the midrange.
You can use my crossover with your drivers (Vifa and Hiquphon). This crossover is "enough versatile".
In my latest evolution, I pay attention to the impedance. This 3 ways impedance curve is very similar to the Manzanita's.
See John's measurement :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/110583-fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project-64.html#post2923900
Note the minimum impedance is near 50Hz and its value is not below 7ohms.
Add a second woofer divides the impedance by two and diminishes the distortion.
You don't bother me with your questions
Regards.
You can use my crossover with your drivers (Vifa and Hiquphon). This crossover is "enough versatile".
In my latest evolution, I pay attention to the impedance. This 3 ways impedance curve is very similar to the Manzanita's.
See John's measurement :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/110583-fast-fun-inexpensive-ob-project-64.html#post2923900
Note the minimum impedance is near 50Hz and its value is not below 7ohms.
Add a second woofer divides the impedance by two and diminishes the distortion.
You don't bother me with your questions
Regards.
OK
Just a note Mark,
If you use the HIQUPHON OW I, 8 ohms, 87dB, the value of the LPAD R5/R6 on the tweeter should be as a starting point : R5=3.3ohms and R6 = 3.9ohms (+2/-1 ohms, to be tune).
The other HIQUPHON tweeters : 8ohms/90dB , don't change anything. Could be need tuning too, but you have the starting point.
Regards.
Just a note Mark,
If you use the HIQUPHON OW I, 8 ohms, 87dB, the value of the LPAD R5/R6 on the tweeter should be as a starting point : R5=3.3ohms and R6 = 3.9ohms (+2/-1 ohms, to be tune).
The other HIQUPHON tweeters : 8ohms/90dB , don't change anything. Could be need tuning too, but you have the starting point.
Regards.
Jerome,
Thank you for the heads up with the Hiquphon.
Have decided on an initial direction, couldn’t wait two weeks, here’s what’s up. I built a set of prototypes using your baffle and the components from my Manzi prototypes… have a lot of unfinished and finished wood lying around. Also went ahead with cut outs for a second set woofers. I’m going to order another set of woofers, run the Vifa’s and incorporate a single set of Hiquphon’s. (Might like to try a different mid down the road, you’d mentioned “A version with a better midrange using the 5" glass-fibre cone 830991”).
I blanked off the holes with tape and cardboard and gave them a listen…sounded pretty good… looking forward to improvements with an updated x-over and added tweeters.
Based on this direction do I stay with the x-over in your post #49 or was that just for the single woofer version? Also, do your comments from post #24 still apply?
Thank you,
Marko
Thank you for the heads up with the Hiquphon.
Have decided on an initial direction, couldn’t wait two weeks, here’s what’s up. I built a set of prototypes using your baffle and the components from my Manzi prototypes… have a lot of unfinished and finished wood lying around. Also went ahead with cut outs for a second set woofers. I’m going to order another set of woofers, run the Vifa’s and incorporate a single set of Hiquphon’s. (Might like to try a different mid down the road, you’d mentioned “A version with a better midrange using the 5" glass-fibre cone 830991”).
I blanked off the holes with tape and cardboard and gave them a listen…sounded pretty good… looking forward to improvements with an updated x-over and added tweeters.
Based on this direction do I stay with the x-over in your post #49 or was that just for the single woofer version? Also, do your comments from post #24 still apply?
Thank you,
Marko
Hi Marko,
You are as impatient as me
I understand you are going to make an order and you want to have all the parts ?
If you add a second woofer, you have to change the crossover because the second woofer changes a lot of things. The sensitivity of the loudspeaker increases by ~6dB, changes also a little the crossover (see below).
The woofer crossover have changed. The inductor is now 10mH, keep the DC resistance below 0.4ohms. The network Lz1/Cz1 changes. The network Rz2/Lz2/Cz2 is optional but buy a 1000uF electrolytic bipolar cap, and a 10ohms (10W min) resistor and listen. It suppresses a bump near 50Hz and extends the low end response, and improves the phase impedance.
The LPAD on the mid and tweeter have changed too...
If OWI tweeter, then R5=1ohms and R6=10ohms. No change if other OW.
Have Fun
You are as impatient as me
I understand you are going to make an order and you want to have all the parts ?
If you add a second woofer, you have to change the crossover because the second woofer changes a lot of things. The sensitivity of the loudspeaker increases by ~6dB, changes also a little the crossover (see below).
The woofer crossover have changed. The inductor is now 10mH, keep the DC resistance below 0.4ohms. The network Lz1/Cz1 changes. The network Rz2/Lz2/Cz2 is optional but buy a 1000uF electrolytic bipolar cap, and a 10ohms (10W min) resistor and listen. It suppresses a bump near 50Hz and extends the low end response, and improves the phase impedance.
The LPAD on the mid and tweeter have changed too...
If OWI tweeter, then R5=1ohms and R6=10ohms. No change if other OW.
Have Fun
Attachments
No i have never worked with this driver. I google it, it an expolinear.
Audio Chassis Berlin | Expolinear
I would like not to work with this driver for a lot of reasons.
The TS parameters are not very easy to work with,
Qt=0.22 Fs=30Hz vas =29L... Not easy to do a BR box, a closed box and passive open baffle. Perhaps a TL Line ?
The price is high 285€ ~ 375$ I'm extremely wary with drivers at such high price... I prefer build a multiway with cheaper drivers.
Note i found very interesting links
About the SDS 134 it is interesting to see numerous speakers with various price.
Here: ASE - Acoustic Systems Engineering 134€ a kit
A commercial speaker Gemme Tonic G3 : 500€
Goldmund metis : ensemble hifi non class GOLDMUND METIS 24190.00 €
Note a kit with the vifa 19TD... : ASE - Acoustic Systems Engineering
Audio Chassis Berlin | Expolinear
I would like not to work with this driver for a lot of reasons.
The TS parameters are not very easy to work with,
Qt=0.22 Fs=30Hz vas =29L... Not easy to do a BR box, a closed box and passive open baffle. Perhaps a TL Line ?
The price is high 285€ ~ 375$ I'm extremely wary with drivers at such high price... I prefer build a multiway with cheaper drivers.
Note i found very interesting links
About the SDS 134 it is interesting to see numerous speakers with various price.
Here: ASE - Acoustic Systems Engineering 134€ a kit
A commercial speaker Gemme Tonic G3 : 500€
Goldmund metis : ensemble hifi non class GOLDMUND METIS 24190.00 €
Note a kit with the vifa 19TD... : ASE - Acoustic Systems Engineering
Jerome - Thanks for sharing your project and all that you have learned along the way. I recently completed a pair of Manzanitas and am enjoying them very much. I would like to fill in the mids a bit though and your low cost version looks promising. I am happy with the bass on the manzi's so your latest cross over looks good with the 20 mH inductor. I have a couple questions though:
This first one is a little embarrassing. When you list an inductor as 470.00 uF, that would be a .47 mH ?
I could not find the Scan Speak replacement for the Vifa but I found this tweet and it looks like it has the right properties to function well with your x-over; http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/sb-acoustics-soft-dome-tweeters/sb-acoustics-sb26stcn-c000-4-tweeter-4-ohms/ The off axis response looks very good and the price at $34 is appealing too.
Hope you are having a pleasant spring in France.
This first one is a little embarrassing. When you list an inductor as 470.00 uF, that would be a .47 mH ?
I could not find the Scan Speak replacement for the Vifa but I found this tweet and it looks like it has the right properties to function well with your x-over; http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/sb-acoustics-soft-dome-tweeters/sb-acoustics-sb26stcn-c000-4-tweeter-4-ohms/ The off axis response looks very good and the price at $34 is appealing too.
Hope you are having a pleasant spring in France.
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