The 2451 IS the same only cheaper because of the odd bolt pattern. If you make the horn yourself that is hardly an issue. I bought mine for 165 USD for the pair with good diaphragms that I switched for a pair of new Be ones at about 1500 for the pair. Hard to beat at under 1700
If I remember correctly the exit under that snout is 1.5. I had the 2451j, iirc correctly the only difference between the 2 was the 2" adapter
Over on the "Annealed Aluminum" thread, "EarnieM" linked a terrific video by the chief designers at B&C and 18Sound. They discuss titanium, aluminum, magnesium, and beryllium diaphragms, nitride treatment and QC issues, and the effect of different surrounds (Mylar vs diamond pleats) on these diaphragms. A lot of you will probably want to take notes or grab some screenshots.
The dialog starts at 31 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/live/x9NAVlwvLro
The dialog starts at 31 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/live/x9NAVlwvLro
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Yes, it was a little unsettling seeing pro customers actually want that horrible sizzling sound that characterizes many PA systems with Ti drivers. Also sobering to realize a lot of the stuff above 12 kHz is from diaphragm breakup, rocking diaphragms, and pleated-surround buzzing, effectively, program-modulated VHF noise.
Based on this interview, in some quarters of the pro world, noise and distortion is as good as music, just so long as something is there, "filling in" the top octave. By comparison, a "quiet" or high-fidelity compression driver might not sell as well.
Based on this interview, in some quarters of the pro world, noise and distortion is as good as music, just so long as something is there, "filling in" the top octave. By comparison, a "quiet" or high-fidelity compression driver might not sell as well.
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It's not just the top octave. PA systems with "bite" are preferred for many genres of music, rock especially. They are said to "cut through." It's all about finding a sound and provoking emotions. For example, you wouldn't want a Reggae or Dubstep PA with a flat response. You want massive, massive bass. For much amplified music, the sound system is an important musical instrument.
Just look at this and notes below...
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...horns-measurements.395046/page-4#post-7258445
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...horns-measurements.395046/page-4#post-7258445
Very much agree. Amplified live is quite often about creating excitement...with sound not normally heard.
(I very much enjoy making that experience at home....sometimes it sounds like my system can almost rip air in two
)And with regard to why the 16kHz boost might be preferred....
There's greater VHF attenuation thru air over distance, than for lower frequencies. ...(as im sure you are aware, but maybe not others)
VHF levels are often actively managed during a large scale show, as temp and humidity change.
Hot dry air can suck the VHF down big time.
A little 16kHz boost might come in quite handy....as in the end it's always the very top and bottom of the audio spectrum that limit SPL.
Hey, on a complete side note.....anybody ever seen waterfalls for any of the old GOTO drivers?
I ask because I wonder if motor strength doesn't overcome a lot of diaphragm material breakups.
Gotcha, thx.
I looked up some of GOTO's motor strengths, and was kinda surprised to see they were in same zipcode / barely higher, (2-2.4T) than today's CDs.
But did see they had some pure Be diaphragms. Anyway, plain pure curiosity about Be and motors...I'm happy has heck with my coax ring guys. (and not rich lol)
I looked up some of GOTO's motor strengths, and was kinda surprised to see they were in same zipcode / barely higher, (2-2.4T) than today's CDs.
But did see they had some pure Be diaphragms. Anyway, plain pure curiosity about Be and motors...I'm happy has heck with my coax ring guys. (and not rich lol)
Here are some unfiltered Goto response curves I took a long time ago. These are measured outdoors. Drivers were on the Goto horns (except the woofer - that was in a back loaded horn). The compression drivers are all pretty limited bandwidth devices. I think the low mid and upper mid drivers have simple phase plugs which limit the high end compared to multi slot designs. This was the SG38WNS, SG570, SG370DX, and SG160.
And to Pano's point (probably - depending on what he heard), if you go with the recommended Goto simple crossover designs, the response is atrocious. It's like +15-18dB between 200Hz and 4kHz relative to the highs and lows.
And to Pano's point (probably - depending on what he heard), if you go with the recommended Goto simple crossover designs, the response is atrocious. It's like +15-18dB between 200Hz and 4kHz relative to the highs and lows.
Yes, thanks for the measurements, John Sheerin
I've wondered about the GOTO's unusually limited bandwidth per their specs, if they were just specifying perfectionist caution (and selling more drivers Lol)
But your measurements show the bandwidth limitations are quite real.
Pano, damn shame the xovers were so bad, when you got to hear them.
Funny, how it's possible to get some speaker elements so right, and others so blatantly wrong.
I've wondered about the GOTO's unusually limited bandwidth per their specs, if they were just specifying perfectionist caution (and selling more drivers Lol)
But your measurements show the bandwidth limitations are quite real.
Pano, damn shame the xovers were so bad, when you got to hear them.
Funny, how it's possible to get some speaker elements so right, and others so blatantly wrong.
Yes, damn shame. I was thrilled to have a chance to hear an all GOTO system, but the unfortunate crossover ruined it. It was the talk of the show, though in hushed tones. The system was almost unbearably shrill, probably due to a mismatch in levels. I felt sorry for the crew running the room.
Despite that, it was super clean and showed great promise beneath the faults.
A couple of years earlier I heard an Avant Garde system that was also the talk of the show for how bad it was. Horribly overdriven and distorted. There I felt no pity for the crew running the room because despite being told by many people how bad it was, they refused to believe it. Very stubborn.
Despite that, it was super clean and showed great promise beneath the faults.
A couple of years earlier I heard an Avant Garde system that was also the talk of the show for how bad it was. Horribly overdriven and distorted. There I felt no pity for the crew running the room because despite being told by many people how bad it was, they refused to believe it. Very stubborn.
Pano, it looks like we similar experiences
I listened to a system in Tokyo in 2005, a full GOTO system. It was a 5-way system + sub below 40Hz. It showed some fantastic properties here and there. The here and there was also the main issue, it failed big time to paint a homogeneous picture. It was a fully active system with separate amps for each channel, massive! I guess it can be made into a really good system with the help of a DSP, infact I think it is impossible without one.
I have also heard a number Avant Garde set-ups and to my ears they have all succeded in making a horn system with all the good horn vertues removed. They are dynamically crippled, flat sounding and sounds more like an over driven dome system.
//Anders
I listened to a system in Tokyo in 2005, a full GOTO system. It was a 5-way system + sub below 40Hz. It showed some fantastic properties here and there. The here and there was also the main issue, it failed big time to paint a homogeneous picture. It was a fully active system with separate amps for each channel, massive! I guess it can be made into a really good system with the help of a DSP, infact I think it is impossible without one.
I have also heard a number Avant Garde set-ups and to my ears they have all succeded in making a horn system with all the good horn vertues removed. They are dynamically crippled, flat sounding and sounds more like an over driven dome system.
//Anders