I am still concerned about peoples complains about a lack of tone in beryllium diaphragms in comparison to alu diaphragms. Then we have the high price of beryllium and also that Be causes cancer if inhaled. Risks are the greatest for the factory workers but still. Alu will not go as high but I think a ribbon will sound better and more relaxed above 12kHz than any compression driver could. But there is a difference in tone and sometimes the distortion from compression drivers are worth it and brings something very personal.
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Most important change was the frequency response, likely due to higher mass breakpoint frequency of the Be, and lack of breakup modes up high.
If the two drivers are not EQed for the same target no valid comparison can be made.
i'll bite on this and both agree and disagree since this depends upon many variables.
i auditioned a pair of jbl theater speakers outside about 3 years ago - the medium format ones with the 15" x 2 woofers and the CD (constant directivity) horns. i swore that the karen carpenter voice played from the CD was standing outside with me. it was the most natural sound of her voice i'd ever heard. i bought the speakers.
her voice was a huge outstanding one that was sometimes recorded very well, in spite of all the frazzle in the other voices and some of the instrumentals that accompanied her.
IMHO this was one of the few, perhaps < 1%, of all recordings made that managed to capture a human voice in its splendor.
now this theater speaker system presents a huge sound stage, even outside, which gives it the advantage of approaching accurate reproduction.
so while there are many variables and many possible points of 'shortcoming' along the path from presentation (performance) to recording to re-presentation (playback), two things must be present at a minimum just to get one part right, in this case - karen's voice. the recording of her voice was really fine and the playback system was also. i get a similar sound from the polk 1C speakers i own, but the sound stage is not nearly so huge as with the theater speakers.
so i agree we still can't do it or don't do it - in full. but we can and do and have been doing it in part for a long time.
mcintosh laboratories did a 'concert' like this in atlanta many years ago at a downtown stereo store using a string ensemble behind the curtains and their large mcintosh speakers.
I'm dreaming of such a horn for the Fostex T500aII, if it is even doable.
just because you haven't heard this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
it might and it does.
consider the difference in the recordings of enrico caruso and mario laza, pavarotti, etc. to note the progression of excellence in recording.
Completely? No, I don't think so. But amazingly good and very close to the real thing? Yes. I've heard it done with stereo recordings in stereo speakers. The caveat is size. Big room, big speakers. Neither has to be as big as the orchestra or the hall, but they do need to be big.
Getting that in a small room is very, very difficult. It may well be impossible to make it satisfactory. Doesn't stop me from trying, tho.
If we stop and think about it, the level of realism we DO get from our systems and recordings is amazing. The illusion mostly works.
maybe this will work?
not to snipe at you, but i'd NEVER make such an assumption.
some people like the klipsch sound and i leave the room!
some people like heavy metal and i leave the room!
just call me doubting thomas - gotta hear 'em 1st.
The Hans Deutsch site is like many you see on the Web. The problem I have from 40 years of this stuff is the Hearsay Factor HF. It arrived before Snake Oil. These sites often offer what in wine quality terms is another wine based on the same old Chardonnay, Sievre, Muscatel grape from different vintners . i.e slightly different flavours if I can call them that. But who has tasted them. I can never accept someone elses idea of flavour unless I had an identical twin to offer his opinion. So. I have to rely on my own persnal appraisal, but there are currently some good posts that have made this thread very helpful in deciding on the project at hand added to my own experience. I hope I have added some back
Thanks for the report, Gary. The document I linked to was GPA's official spec sheet for their currently manufacturered driver -- not some guesstimate constructed from historical Altec literature. That your examples are no where in the ballpark of GPA's publicly-stated specifications is concerning...
Regards,
John
I'm thinking in particular of the Drottningholm Ensemble's version of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, which was the first I listened to seriously - and completely spoilt me for any other recordings of the piece ... all the others seem to be almost a completely different work - and definitely inferior!
Sorry for being a Johnny-come-lately, but I just had to say:
+1000 000
Deon
Rewind,
I do want to correct something that you stated earlier about Beryllium and its toxicity. Yes in raw form it is an extremely toxic substance and is not to be played with or handled incorrectly. But here is where the rub comes in on that material. The TAD vapor deposited material is a very different animal than the Brush Wellman foil material. While the TAD when it is damaged can introduce particles into the air due to its construction method of grain oriented Be, that is how it is created, one molecule at a time in deposition the foil will not shed particle this way. The failure mode will be just as in a normal aluminum foil diaphragm, it will just crack. Unless you take that material and put it in your mouth you won't have a problem. Also for those who do own a Be compression driver with the foil your should be aware that you don't want to touch that surface ever, you will leave oils from your fingers and the material will corrode. I have been warned directly about this by Brush Wellman/Materion that any fingerprints can not be cleaned off and will leave a permanent mark.
I was very concerned about producing a Be part for a consumer application. I talked to a relative of mine and he confirmed the same thing that Brush Wellman is saying. He happens to be a Phd in metallurgy and was one of those who investigated the causes of plane crashes for the US Air Force. He is currently working on the ongoing Star Wars implementation that so many think was killed when the Cold War ended with Russia. As long as you are not around the raw powdered material or the processing of the material the foil beryllium material should pose no health hazards.
ps. I do have an idea that came from working with the TAD compression drivers that I would call safety beryllium but the final outcome would be some added mass and that would just undo some of the advantage of that method of producing a diaphragm. The TAD diaphragms are lighter than the equivalent foil beryllium diaphragms but the ultimate strength of the TAD material is also much lower in the final result. From my experiences with the TAD diaphragms in the past the major failure mode was actually at the solder joint of the flat leadout wire and the binding posts. This was very common in the past and hopefully that problem was solved as it was so obvious at the time.
I do want to correct something that you stated earlier about Beryllium and its toxicity. Yes in raw form it is an extremely toxic substance and is not to be played with or handled incorrectly. But here is where the rub comes in on that material. The TAD vapor deposited material is a very different animal than the Brush Wellman foil material. While the TAD when it is damaged can introduce particles into the air due to its construction method of grain oriented Be, that is how it is created, one molecule at a time in deposition the foil will not shed particle this way. The failure mode will be just as in a normal aluminum foil diaphragm, it will just crack. Unless you take that material and put it in your mouth you won't have a problem. Also for those who do own a Be compression driver with the foil your should be aware that you don't want to touch that surface ever, you will leave oils from your fingers and the material will corrode. I have been warned directly about this by Brush Wellman/Materion that any fingerprints can not be cleaned off and will leave a permanent mark.
I was very concerned about producing a Be part for a consumer application. I talked to a relative of mine and he confirmed the same thing that Brush Wellman is saying. He happens to be a Phd in metallurgy and was one of those who investigated the causes of plane crashes for the US Air Force. He is currently working on the ongoing Star Wars implementation that so many think was killed when the Cold War ended with Russia. As long as you are not around the raw powdered material or the processing of the material the foil beryllium material should pose no health hazards.
ps. I do have an idea that came from working with the TAD compression drivers that I would call safety beryllium but the final outcome would be some added mass and that would just undo some of the advantage of that method of producing a diaphragm. The TAD diaphragms are lighter than the equivalent foil beryllium diaphragms but the ultimate strength of the TAD material is also much lower in the final result. From my experiences with the TAD diaphragms in the past the major failure mode was actually at the solder joint of the flat leadout wire and the binding posts. This was very common in the past and hopefully that problem was solved as it was so obvious at the time.
Hi,
Thank you.
I don't see how your above testimony refutes my (updated) statement:
"AFAIK, no reproduction system in the world, using available commercial recordings, can fully imitate 'the real thing' (live concert of unamplified acoustic instruments and human voices, especially classical music) in such a way that when all experienced listeners, when entering the room, or venue, blindfolded, all of them would be completely sure that they attend an actual live concert. (All experienced listeners may refer to one at a time, or few at a time)."
A convincing reproduction of a single human voice, to a single listener, is in no contradiction to my statement.
Thank you.
I don't see how your above testimony refutes my (updated) statement:
"AFAIK, no reproduction system in the world, using available commercial recordings, can fully imitate 'the real thing' (live concert of unamplified acoustic instruments and human voices, especially classical music) in such a way that when all experienced listeners, when entering the room, or venue, blindfolded, all of them would be completely sure that they attend an actual live concert. (All experienced listeners may refer to one at a time, or few at a time)."
A convincing reproduction of a single human voice, to a single listener, is in no contradiction to my statement.
Sorry! I was trying to respond to Eldam's post, and didn't see the leftover tags from your quote (from Lynn) that appeared in his post.
Hi,
Thank you.
I didn't choose my speakers upon the looks of the designer's website, nor upon any verbal factors. I chose my speakers after hearing their bigger brother and having reliable information about the difference in sound between the two models.
So?
I never follow blindly others' taste, or advise.
There are some people (not many), whose taste in sound quality is similar to mine. I give serious considerations to their testimonies concerning evaluations of sound quality of various audio reproduction gear. I may spend money upon such testimonies, though my taste wouldn't change, even if their testimonies will turn up to be not up to my taste.
Whenever people ask for others' opinions about any piece of gear for sound system, my consistent and persistent advise to them is to listen on their own, in their own living room, with their existing sound system. It happens a lot on a local 'Hi FI' forums.
There are few reasons for the above recommendation of mine.
One reason is that different people have different taste and preferences concerning sound reproduction. What sounds good to one person may sound bad to another one.
The second reason is that the way any piece of gear for sound system sounds, depends (also) on the synergy with entire system. A certain amp, or a certain cable, may sound exceptionally good on one system, while the very same item may sound ban on another system.
I have a recent example to the above.
Last week a fellow came to my house with a phono stage he purchased recently, one he was very pleased with on his own system. After the phono stage got warmed up and we listened to it on my system, both of us agreed that it didn’t sound good at all – not in itself and in in comparison to my phono stage.
Thank you.
I didn't choose my speakers upon the looks of the designer's website, nor upon any verbal factors. I chose my speakers after hearing their bigger brother and having reliable information about the difference in sound between the two models.
So?
I never follow blindly others' taste, or advise.
There are some people (not many), whose taste in sound quality is similar to mine. I give serious considerations to their testimonies concerning evaluations of sound quality of various audio reproduction gear. I may spend money upon such testimonies, though my taste wouldn't change, even if their testimonies will turn up to be not up to my taste.
Whenever people ask for others' opinions about any piece of gear for sound system, my consistent and persistent advise to them is to listen on their own, in their own living room, with their existing sound system. It happens a lot on a local 'Hi FI' forums.
There are few reasons for the above recommendation of mine.
One reason is that different people have different taste and preferences concerning sound reproduction. What sounds good to one person may sound bad to another one.
The second reason is that the way any piece of gear for sound system sounds, depends (also) on the synergy with entire system. A certain amp, or a certain cable, may sound exceptionally good on one system, while the very same item may sound ban on another system.
I have a recent example to the above.
Last week a fellow came to my house with a phono stage he purchased recently, one he was very pleased with on his own system. After the phono stage got warmed up and we listened to it on my system, both of us agreed that it didn’t sound good at all – not in itself and in in comparison to my phono stage.
Well gosh, this is a DIY forum ... it's part of the name! So where you gonna hear a DIY project that only exists in a few parts of the world?
There aren't going to be any reviews in Stereophile, Absolute Sound, or Six Moons, nor are any of these projects going to be shown at the RMAF ($3500 exhibition cost) or the CES ($25,000 exhibition cost). You won't hear DIY projects at a hifi dealer, either.
The last thing any dealer wants is competition from cheapskate builders with an attitude about the expensive products that they sell at a 40% to 50% profit margin. We are not the same demographic as the customer base that buys high-end audio.
The only way you can hear any diyAudio project is wangle an invitation from somebody that's built one ... and then it's part of their system, aimed at their tastes. You want to hear DIY, make nice with the forum members.
P.S. Not that I follow my own advice. I've had several remarkably uncomfortable encounters at dealers and manufacturers when they kept pressing, over and over, for my real opinion, not the evasive BS that I pawn off on people that I like in the industry. After the third, fourth, or fifth try, I give up and tell them what I really think. And don't get invited back.
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That's a journey one can go on, and in fact it's my journey. That is, to make the human voice on every recording sound like the real thing. Every recording. Obviously, with heavy duty rock 'operas', and highly processed, gimmicky productions this becomes harder. But it is attainable ...
Human hearing is extremely adept at picking flaws in reproduction of the human voice, because we are constantly exposed to it, we know it like the proverbial back of our ...
So, whether you believe it or not, all the information is on essentially all recordings for the human voice to be conveyed completely realistically - it's then up to the playback system to get out of the way suffficiently for the illusion to work ...
Edit: Years ago, the realisation of this occurred while playing Status Quo. The guitars were driving hard, the drummer was thrashing the cymbals with great vigour ... but, there, in the middle, were the male voices singing 'sweetly' into the microphone, you could 'see' them standing quietly in front of the mic, almost like singing a lullaby to children ...
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Lynn,
Wow I guess it dates me as the last time I had a room at the CES it was about 8 or 9,000 dollars for a normal sized hotel room. That would sure eliminate many smaller manufacturers from ever showing at the show. Other things that I remember though were the terrible power supply situation with that many companies running massive power amplifiers and also the problems with other rooms. How many times I heard that the room below me was pissed about the bass frequencies bleeding into their rooms and from those even more than a few doors down. What were we supposed to do cut the bass so that it didn't sound as good just so to make someone else happy? And the rooms themselves weren't exactly conducive to playing music. We brought in some acoustic panels to help with the room and I don't know how we would have done otherwise. The very large companies had huge rooms that I shudder to think of the cost that made it easier for them to set up in. At the same time some of these companies spent a week before the show just getting the speaker placement correct, not something you could do in a couple of hours with the normal check-in schedule of the show.
Wow I guess it dates me as the last time I had a room at the CES it was about 8 or 9,000 dollars for a normal sized hotel room. That would sure eliminate many smaller manufacturers from ever showing at the show. Other things that I remember though were the terrible power supply situation with that many companies running massive power amplifiers and also the problems with other rooms. How many times I heard that the room below me was pissed about the bass frequencies bleeding into their rooms and from those even more than a few doors down. What were we supposed to do cut the bass so that it didn't sound as good just so to make someone else happy? And the rooms themselves weren't exactly conducive to playing music. We brought in some acoustic panels to help with the room and I don't know how we would have done otherwise. The very large companies had huge rooms that I shudder to think of the cost that made it easier for them to set up in. At the same time some of these companies spent a week before the show just getting the speaker placement correct, not something you could do in a couple of hours with the normal check-in schedule of the show.
fas42,
Steely Dan is probably one of the nicest set of production albums done in a studio for listening to quality vocals and instrumentation in the rock genre. If you can't get those recording to sound correct then you know you have problems with the system. Joni Mitchell also comes to mind for high quality vocals from a studio album. You do need to check both though, male and female vocals can have very different sounds on the same system.
Steely Dan is probably one of the nicest set of production albums done in a studio for listening to quality vocals and instrumentation in the rock genre. If you can't get those recording to sound correct then you know you have problems with the system. Joni Mitchell also comes to mind for high quality vocals from a studio album. You do need to check both though, male and female vocals can have very different sounds on the same system.