Completely? No, I don't think so. But amazingly good and very close to the real thing? Yes. I've heard it done with stereo recordings in stereo speakers. The caveat is size. Big room, big speakers. Neither has to be as big as the orchestra or the hall, but they do need to be big.
Getting that in a small room is very, very difficult. It may well be impossible to make it satisfactory. Doesn't stop me from trying, tho.
If we stop and think about it, the level of realism we DO get from our systems and recordings is amazing. The illusion mostly works.
Conversely, anyone with a preference for only solid state amplification is showing his bias and preferences. To my ear most transistor amps are colored, and it's not a pretty color. Not one you find in nature, anyway.
Good for you.
From my POV, convictions don't substitute listening.
Also, the design of those speakers is unique, unlike any other speakers I heard of.
Than, I made a mistake lumping Tractrix and LeCleach altogether . I've always read that Jabo horns are exponential and heaving tried a few traxctrixes on TAD 4001 I gave up on fast opening profiles for that driver. Jabo KH55 was best of the bunch . Eventually, I gave up on TD-4001. It's a good driver but implementation requires skill and design rigor I don't have and still the compromises would be grater than Id be willing to accept for the price. I read comments that it was made together with TH-4001 horn and the pair compliments each other deficiencies. I never heard TAD monitor in familiar setup but I'm quite familiar with C.A.R speakers implementing this combo and it's not for me.
Best Regards from Midwest ,
L
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I think they may also serve people (like myself) who want to switch to low-to-moderate-power direct-heated-triode or pentode amplifiers, should they have good sounding, high efficient speakers.
I have been comparing 2A3/45 with 6L6 amps, and EL84. The difference is I am looking to convert to two last into guitar amps and get as many 2A3/45 amps as I can for my multichannel horn system. Subwoofer may get a Krell solid state, if I ever finish it, or just a class D 600W car amp that I have hooked up to the computer right now.
A note about evaluating speaker at shows and demos
A note about evaluating speaker at shows and demos.
I bought my speakers after hearing their big brother (the VC7, the larger model of the same series, then manufactured by Bosendorfer), at a person's home.
At that time, there were no VC2 (the model I purchased) in my country. There were only 2 sets of VC7, one at the dealer's house (not show room) and the other at a private home, where I heard them.
Later on, the dealer brought also a pair of VC2 and demonstrated them in his show room and at various local audio shows.
Based on how these speakers sound in the dealer's show room and in the various audios shows they were demonstrated in, I wouldn't pay for them even $100 – they sounded horrible.
To my experience, voicing the system – that is, placing correctly the speakers and the listening position, along with acoustic treatment – may have greater impact on the overall sound than the gear used. I'm not saying that the gear used doesn't impact and dictates the sound quality, I'm only saying that voicing the system may have, at times, greater impact.
As of comparing different setups, when all of them aren't voiced correctly – I don't know. Possibly, some speakers are far more sensitive to voicing than others. I do know that my speakers are very sensitive to voicing. Perhaps it so because of they are designed to produce the sound in a unique way of utilizing the room's reflections.
The bottom line is that, personally, I'm very cautious about forming final view on audio gear's sound quality, based only on what I heard at shows.
A note about evaluating speaker at shows and demos.
I bought my speakers after hearing their big brother (the VC7, the larger model of the same series, then manufactured by Bosendorfer), at a person's home.
At that time, there were no VC2 (the model I purchased) in my country. There were only 2 sets of VC7, one at the dealer's house (not show room) and the other at a private home, where I heard them.
Later on, the dealer brought also a pair of VC2 and demonstrated them in his show room and at various local audio shows.
Based on how these speakers sound in the dealer's show room and in the various audios shows they were demonstrated in, I wouldn't pay for them even $100 – they sounded horrible.
To my experience, voicing the system – that is, placing correctly the speakers and the listening position, along with acoustic treatment – may have greater impact on the overall sound than the gear used. I'm not saying that the gear used doesn't impact and dictates the sound quality, I'm only saying that voicing the system may have, at times, greater impact.
As of comparing different setups, when all of them aren't voiced correctly – I don't know. Possibly, some speakers are far more sensitive to voicing than others. I do know that my speakers are very sensitive to voicing. Perhaps it so because of they are designed to produce the sound in a unique way of utilizing the room's reflections.
The bottom line is that, personally, I'm very cautious about forming final view on audio gear's sound quality, based only on what I heard at shows.
To me the "they are here" illusion works great. The "you are there" illusion just doesn't happen for large venues with natural acoustics. I do get a "you are there" for live venues where the sound was from a reinforcement system (the venue acoustics get heavily suppressed in this case.) But a large orchestra in a small room just doesn't get there.
Circle Surround with rear and above (omni) ceiling wide radiation helps me with this
Given how aggressively you've defended the speakers that have significant shortcomings in design which limit their soundfield consistency and SPL capabilities, by responding to every post in a petulant "Good for you" fashion, it's quite apparent that you're very married to your speakers, and convinced that your personal perception is greater than the decades of experience with specific design details of those posting on this thread. As I said- enjoy them, they meet your taste, but you're interacting with people who KNOW what the flaws presented in the weak design of those speakers sound like.
I feel sorry for people showing their stuff at a show and not trying to show their best. I walk into some rooms that put a sign, playing, but there are two sets playing at he same time and they don't notice it until I tell them; I have also been in one room that had only one channel playing. I could never understand why they could not have detected it since they were listening as well. There are many ways to voice a system, and I had someone requesting tone controls. I wondered and studied the issue, and see some potential in it if designed right. So that should go into a design if it can be successfully implemented. So I agree voicing needs to be done and fine tuned to the speaker. Room treatment should follow after the speaker is properly tuned. Lots of people try to retune the speaker to the room, this can cause some adverse effects.
I think we should return to relaxed atmosphere of opinion exchange especially in the brink of approaching Thanksgiving . Shall we ??
Good for you.
'Good for you' refers to your (and others) ability to know how speakers sound by only looking at them, without actually hearing them, especially speakers of non-conventional design – a unique design which may have considerable impact on their sound. This is an ability which I don't have. So, it's really good for you, because of you have an edge over me, you have an ability which I don't have.
From my POV, not having the ability to know how speakers sound by only looking at them – I found that there is no substitute for actual listening. It may be a shortcoming on my part, yet, this is what I have and this is where I stand.
That being said, I wonder how many people actually purchased loudspeakers after only looking at them, or their photos, or their construction diagrams, without hearing them.
Anyhow, whenever I mentioned 'good for you' I referred only to the ability to know (or the assumption of knowing) how speakers sound by only looking at them, without hearing them. I didn't refer to any preference in sound reproduction. There are people who visited me, heard my sound setup – and chose entirely different setup. I do know that different people have different preferences. This is natural, it is the way things are, and I have no reservations about it. My only reservation is that, at this point, I doubt the ability of knowing how speakers sound by only looking at them, without hearing them – especially when those speakers are of non-conventional design.
As for you psychological analysis about my attachment to my speakers.
From the fact that I participate in this thread it should be obvious that I'm looking for better speakers than I currently have.
Yet, not all people actually observe what should be obvious.
There is nothing I can do about it, so, let it be.
On a personal note.
I do enjoy listening to music via my sound setup. At the same time, I do know that potentially, there are much better-sounding setups. Which is why I keep on looking, both at commercial options and at DIY options.
Now, if you KNOW how my speakers sound in the same way you know that I'm married to my speakers – I got my answer. I can see clearly into the erroneous assumptions, taken to be actual knowledge.
This post of mine will be the last one in this thread in which I'll refer in any way to my current speakers, or to any comments about my current speakers, or to any comment about my psychological state.
So do I.
It is my assumption that all dealers try to show their best, yet, there are dealers who have no clue about how to voice properly a sound setup. I met some such dealers in my country.
On top of that, quite often, show rooms at audio shows put severe limitations on the ability to voice a sound setup properly.
Agreed.
Voicing a sound setup can be done only in a given room.
At different rooms, the positions of the speakers and the sitting position may be entirely differently.
Yet, I agree with you that voicing the setup shouldn't substitute room treatment and acoustic treatment.
You forgot "looking at performance data", but I think that you would be surprised at how many do this. The ability to personally evaluate a loudspeaker pushes its sales price way up - probably double or more. And this price increase comes with no improvement in performance.
Hi Joshua,
first of all let me say that I generally agree with you on a number of key points (impossibility of completely and 100% accurately recreating a real acoustic event; inappropriateness of judging a sound system without having listened to it; etc.).
However, I also do believe that there are some broad, general informed inferences that can be made based on a visual and descriptive analysis of a loudspeaker system. If this were not the case, then designing loudspeakers would be completely in the realm of black magic, and forums such as this would be pointless, don't you agree?
To make a crude simile, it's a little bit like saying that one cannot possibly know how a car handles in corners without having actually driven it. While true to some extent, that does not prevent a seasoned driver from being able to make an educated guess that a vehicle primarily designed to be an excellent off-roader is unlikely to compete with a low-riding speedster in that particular respect.
By the same token, speakers like yours that were clearly designed (and are openly reported to be designed) so as to make use of resonating boards and room reflections to complement the direct radiation of the drive units can be inferred to (re)produce a sound field at the listening position that is overall less strictly adherent to the one that is encoded in the recording (by adding extraneous resonances and reflections into the mix).
Whether the result is pleasing or not, one cannot say without listening, I concede that.
BUT, one can legitimately state that one is skeptical of (or simply not interested in) such a philosophical approach to sound reproduction.
Incidentally, it is curious that you would at the same time express your appreciation of your current speakers (good as they may be, they are the product of a specific design approach) and at the same time also express keen interest in Lynn's "Beyond the Ariel" prototypes, which, according to what can be inferred based on their design topology, adopt a completely different design philosophy, in which high directivity leads to a large predominance of direct over reflected sound at the listening position.
In other words, it can be inferred (even without having listened to either) that the two will sound very different.
Marco