I note that some feel that physically damping the whizzer (by putting some foam on its back to stop stray vibrations from the main cone) yields good results - reducing the shouting and some of the beaming apparently
I think I'll try the crossover first before I abuse
the driver
Godzilla step away from the kraft knife
I think I'll try the crossover first before I abuse
the driverGodzilla step away from the kraft knife
Frequency response, CSD, impedance, and T-S parameters of the Eminence Beta-12LT, as well as the similar Fane Sovereign 12-200LT. PDFs are from prodance.cz. MCM sells the Fane for $70.
Hey Godzilla - What sub are you gonna use?
I like the look of the Zu's you linked to. In my head my speakers are gonna be a similar size but on their side with the driver in the centre. Stacked one on top of the other and 3 spikes between.
Would the wide baffle, as opposed to skinny tall baffle, make a huge difference?
I like the look of the Zu's you linked to. In my head my speakers are gonna be a similar size but on their side with the driver in the centre. Stacked one on top of the other and 3 spikes between.
Would the wide baffle, as opposed to skinny tall baffle, make a huge difference?
LDSG - ACI/Eclipse/Meniscus recommendations
I have an old ACI SV-12 in storage and want to put it to use.
I don't think the baffle width being vert or horizontal will determine how enjoyable the 12lta will be to listen to. Your system sounds interesting. Will you be stacking the left, right and sub one on top of the other? Please tell me more about your idea.
Zilla
PS, one of my cabs is nearly complete. i may have one or two up and running before weekend is over. sub will have to wait another week.
I have an old ACI SV-12 in storage and want to put it to use.
I don't think the baffle width being vert or horizontal will determine how enjoyable the 12lta will be to listen to. Your system sounds interesting. Will you be stacking the left, right and sub one on top of the other? Please tell me more about your idea.
Zilla
PS, one of my cabs is nearly complete. i may have one or two up and running before weekend is over. sub will have to wait another week.
Thanks for that.
The sub and beta 12lt cabinets will be the same widths and but will differ in height and depth to get the right volumes. Sub on the bottom and 12lt on top of that then tweeter on that. Several layers of ply laminated together (but not as wide as the rest) will form the FT17h hosing on top.
I'm looking at the matching beta 15 for bass. 2 of those babies ought to rock my world
The sub and beta 12lt cabinets will be the same widths and but will differ in height and depth to get the right volumes. Sub on the bottom and 12lt on top of that then tweeter on that. Several layers of ply laminated together (but not as wide as the rest) will form the FT17h hosing on top.
I'm looking at the matching beta 15 for bass. 2 of those babies ought to rock my world
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Hey Godzilla, any listening impressions yet? How'd they sound in the 2.5cft box?
Could you run the spec on a Beta 15 http://www.eminence.com/pdf/beta-15a.pdf in a 5 c ft sealed enclosure pls?
I cant run winisd on a mac......
Could you run the spec on a Beta 15 http://www.eminence.com/pdf/beta-15a.pdf in a 5 c ft sealed enclosure pls?
I cant run winisd on a mac......
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5 cubes sealed = 1.03 Qtc (under damped) -3dB @ 51 Hz.Could you run the spec on a Beta 15 http://www.eminence.com/pdf/beta-15a.pdf in a 5 c ft sealed enclosure pls?
Xmax @ 50 Hz with about 30w = max SPL around 110-112dB.
See PDF for more measurements on the Beta 15.
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http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-410c.pdf
I just bought a new macbook pro and am snowed in so can't run WinIsd until i get to office Wednesday. I completed one box and the second one is clamped and drying. If i can stuff it and get the back onto it tonight i may hear them without the sub. They look fugly! I am annoyed i spent extra on finished ply only to have them cut so poorly. Lots of putty... lots of sanding... but i will hook them up for a listen asap. This will be a 'non tweaked' listen just to get a handle on their sound.
I just bought a new macbook pro and am snowed in so can't run WinIsd until i get to office Wednesday. I completed one box and the second one is clamped and drying. If i can stuff it and get the back onto it tonight i may hear them without the sub. They look fugly! I am annoyed i spent extra on finished ply only to have them cut so poorly. Lots of putty... lots of sanding... but i will hook them up for a listen asap. This will be a 'non tweaked' listen just to get a handle on their sound.
Thanks for that Godzilla.
Shame about the woodwork. I'm gonna use a mix of MDF and Ply and then spray it up with a living room friendly colour of my better half's choice.
Will be interested in your listening impressions. I cancelled my Lepai amp order because the vendor is having postal issues.
Do you thing that a single amp and crossover would be a better bet than 3 amps and a Behringer box-o-trix? Nice deals on TA2020 & TA2024 boards around at the moment.
Shame about the woodwork. I'm gonna use a mix of MDF and Ply and then spray it up with a living room friendly colour of my better half's choice.
Will be interested in your listening impressions. I cancelled my Lepai amp order because the vendor is having postal issues.
Do you thing that a single amp and crossover would be a better bet than 3 amps and a Behringer box-o-trix? Nice deals on TA2020 & TA2024 boards around at the moment.
>>> Will be interested in your listening impressions.
The driver has great potential! Today I listened to the 12lta for the first time and wanted to share my initial comments.
They are in 2.5 cubic foot sealed and stuffed boxes (see pic). I am powering them with a 30 watt tube amp (Cary Audio) but intend to ultimately use them with a T-amp (Dayton).
Cons:
Large driver requires large cabinet.
Lack deep bass.
Requires bass and treble extension.
Pros:
Efficient!
Big sound!
Wide range can easily be extended.
Application is everything! Finding the right way to apply the 12lta will be an interesting and fun challenge because it offers so much as a highly efficient wide range driver. It’s not as expensive as many of the full range drivers we enjoy but requires a tweeter and subwoofer to extend its frequency response. Otherwise, it’s a very large wide range ‘midrange’ driver in anything from 2.5 cubic foot or smaller. They sound like they simulate… lacking bass for such a large driver. But they offer excellent efficiency!
Until now, the most efficient wide range drivers I’ve encountered were the Fostex 168s (older style with whizzer) and Fostex 165k rated at 94 and 95db per watt respectively. Honestly, the 127e, Pioneer B20 rated at 90db sound about as efficient as does the 93db rated Tangband 1808 (see pic). The Beta 12lta is more efficient than all of these drivers and sounded much louder than the TB 1808 by an obvious margin!
Based on the sims, it looks like a 4cf box (like the Hammer Dynamics) is the smallest one could pop the 12lta into and get bass. I think the Afterburner with a 2.8 cubic foot volume will be too small unless placed into corners… which may create other challenges. I think the BIB or another back horn would bring up the bass and balance it out but it will be huge… and very efficient!
Setting up only one speaker for a quick listen (around half hour) I can say this driver offers great potential! I directly compared it to the TB 1808 in the picture and they sounded very different indeed! The TB 1808 is on open baffle and has the amazing H-frames for bass support. It also uses the old Radio Shack ‘pod’ super tweeter. The 12lta is mated to an Eminence compression driver and a Dayton waveguide. To get started I chose a 1.5uf cap to connect the tweeter and put on some Jack Johnson.
1.5uf for this tweeter mated to the 12lta is within the level of ‘it works’ but isn’t optimal. There was too much ‘tweet’ there but it’s close. I will try a 1uf and see how that goes but remember, this tweeter is 103db per watt! I think the best value will be somewhere in between and maybe rolling off the tweeter at 12db rather than 6db will clean things up. Otherwise, I believe I am in the ballpark of blending these two drivers.
I am not sure if the 12lta will require a circuit. At first listen maybe it does but I have not played with toe in at all yet or dialed in the tweeter. It’s a forward sound but not as forward as the Fostex I have on hand. Overall it’s a large, dynamic, efficient sound. You can hear lots of detail. It makes a big sound that’s pushed into the room rather than set back. I can certainly see why many would love this driver… I can see why others won’t. So far, I like it enough to continue looking for the right application in my listening room. Eventually these speakers will end up in my office. Switching to the Wicked soundtrack, things were equally involving and detailed.
The bass is just not there. I connected the H-frames which added a beautiful full bass to the overall presentation but when disconnected the 12lta on its own fails in the 2.5 cf cabinet. Perhaps just sealing the 12lta in 1.5cf cabs atop the H-frames would work but so will many other drivers. They won’t offer the efficiency of the 12lta tho.
The 12lta is an efficient driver that’s exciting to listen to. It’s a beast that needs taming. I doubt it will be silky smooth as the triple the price TB 1808 or the double the price Fostex 168s (older style) but I do believe it will be an entertaining, enjoyable speaker to listen to that’s more efficient than anything I’ve heard to date.
So it’s a wide range ‘midrange’ that requires a helper woofer and tweeter to sound its best in a home environment. I believe it can be made to work very successfully in low watt systems (and probably high watt systems as well). Certainly it’s been around and found its way into excellent systems already. For now I will listen and tweak them in the 2.5cf sealed boxes and eventually add a sealed powered sub.
My interest is piqued… 12” drivers can sound excellent thru the midrange. Another instance where Bigger is Better!
Zilla
The driver has great potential! Today I listened to the 12lta for the first time and wanted to share my initial comments.
They are in 2.5 cubic foot sealed and stuffed boxes (see pic). I am powering them with a 30 watt tube amp (Cary Audio) but intend to ultimately use them with a T-amp (Dayton).
Cons:
Large driver requires large cabinet.
Lack deep bass.
Requires bass and treble extension.
Pros:
Efficient!
Big sound!
Wide range can easily be extended.
Application is everything! Finding the right way to apply the 12lta will be an interesting and fun challenge because it offers so much as a highly efficient wide range driver. It’s not as expensive as many of the full range drivers we enjoy but requires a tweeter and subwoofer to extend its frequency response. Otherwise, it’s a very large wide range ‘midrange’ driver in anything from 2.5 cubic foot or smaller. They sound like they simulate… lacking bass for such a large driver. But they offer excellent efficiency!
Until now, the most efficient wide range drivers I’ve encountered were the Fostex 168s (older style with whizzer) and Fostex 165k rated at 94 and 95db per watt respectively. Honestly, the 127e, Pioneer B20 rated at 90db sound about as efficient as does the 93db rated Tangband 1808 (see pic). The Beta 12lta is more efficient than all of these drivers and sounded much louder than the TB 1808 by an obvious margin!
Based on the sims, it looks like a 4cf box (like the Hammer Dynamics) is the smallest one could pop the 12lta into and get bass. I think the Afterburner with a 2.8 cubic foot volume will be too small unless placed into corners… which may create other challenges. I think the BIB or another back horn would bring up the bass and balance it out but it will be huge… and very efficient!
Setting up only one speaker for a quick listen (around half hour) I can say this driver offers great potential! I directly compared it to the TB 1808 in the picture and they sounded very different indeed! The TB 1808 is on open baffle and has the amazing H-frames for bass support. It also uses the old Radio Shack ‘pod’ super tweeter. The 12lta is mated to an Eminence compression driver and a Dayton waveguide. To get started I chose a 1.5uf cap to connect the tweeter and put on some Jack Johnson.
1.5uf for this tweeter mated to the 12lta is within the level of ‘it works’ but isn’t optimal. There was too much ‘tweet’ there but it’s close. I will try a 1uf and see how that goes but remember, this tweeter is 103db per watt! I think the best value will be somewhere in between and maybe rolling off the tweeter at 12db rather than 6db will clean things up. Otherwise, I believe I am in the ballpark of blending these two drivers.
I am not sure if the 12lta will require a circuit. At first listen maybe it does but I have not played with toe in at all yet or dialed in the tweeter. It’s a forward sound but not as forward as the Fostex I have on hand. Overall it’s a large, dynamic, efficient sound. You can hear lots of detail. It makes a big sound that’s pushed into the room rather than set back. I can certainly see why many would love this driver… I can see why others won’t. So far, I like it enough to continue looking for the right application in my listening room. Eventually these speakers will end up in my office. Switching to the Wicked soundtrack, things were equally involving and detailed.
The bass is just not there. I connected the H-frames which added a beautiful full bass to the overall presentation but when disconnected the 12lta on its own fails in the 2.5 cf cabinet. Perhaps just sealing the 12lta in 1.5cf cabs atop the H-frames would work but so will many other drivers. They won’t offer the efficiency of the 12lta tho.
The 12lta is an efficient driver that’s exciting to listen to. It’s a beast that needs taming. I doubt it will be silky smooth as the triple the price TB 1808 or the double the price Fostex 168s (older style) but I do believe it will be an entertaining, enjoyable speaker to listen to that’s more efficient than anything I’ve heard to date.
So it’s a wide range ‘midrange’ that requires a helper woofer and tweeter to sound its best in a home environment. I believe it can be made to work very successfully in low watt systems (and probably high watt systems as well). Certainly it’s been around and found its way into excellent systems already. For now I will listen and tweak them in the 2.5cf sealed boxes and eventually add a sealed powered sub.
My interest is piqued… 12” drivers can sound excellent thru the midrange. Another instance where Bigger is Better!
Zilla
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Thanks for the detailed impression Godzilla. I think one word sums up your post - Potential
Cant wait to get mine. Ordered yesterday. Will get them run in on the Trends amp until I can decide what to do for the bass.
What do you think - A 15inch Beta per side or another 12LT per side in a ported 10c ft cabinet as per your winISD curves
Cant wait to get mine. Ordered yesterday. Will get them run in on the Trends amp until I can decide what to do for the bass.
What do you think - A 15inch Beta per side or another 12LT per side in a ported 10c ft cabinet as per your winISD curves
FWIW, .. I use a single beta 12LTA as a center channel in a 2 cuft. aperiodic box in my home theater. Goes down to about 70 - 80 Hz. No need for anything lower and I haven't bothered with adding a tweeter yet, . though I probably should.
There's someone on this group who built a folded TQWT for the beta 12LTA. I suppose a MLTL would be another way to get bass from this driver.
There's someone on this group who built a folded TQWT for the beta 12LTA. I suppose a MLTL would be another way to get bass from this driver.
Hi Zobsky, do you use a circuit on your center channel 12lta? Also, what are your main left and right speakers?
JRKO, i am not sure about the MTM bc i never built one. But i always like a single driver as the main driver when using full rangers. Honestly, i don't know. But pairing the 12lta with a 15" driver for bass duties sounds like a great idea to me.
Thanks,
Zilla
JRKO, i am not sure about the MTM bc i never built one. But i always like a single driver as the main driver when using full rangers. Honestly, i don't know. But pairing the 12lta with a 15" driver for bass duties sounds like a great idea to me.
Thanks,
Zilla
With bass support the 12lta is very good. I also swapped the 1.5uf cap for a 1uf cap to calm the treble down on the tweeter and it worked very well. i like simple crossovers. right now i'm thinking the 12lta works in either large ported box 4cf or larger or small sealed box with bass support. I'd imagine a BIB would be incredible. The driver is detailed and live sounding. the TBs seem to be resolving more and are less congested... i think they even go deeper and extend higher... but the 12lta has many strengths and sounds very musically correct to me. They are very efficient and have a dynamic presentation. They play louder than anything i've owned but sound great at quiet volumes. I hear my tubes humming bc they are so efficient. They are pro drivers designed to fill large spaces so we are force fitting them into our home listening rooms. There is a resonance coming from within the whizzer cone... probably sitting too close to the speakers. i expect i might cut out the dust cap. Even with all the nits to pic overall it's a BIG winner. Just looking at what i built i think i could/should go sealed and smaller maybe 1.5cf, i'd have to check the sims. They are not magical but certainly get the job done. The H-frames complement them beautifully. I wonder how my 12" sealed powered sub will augment them, i doubt as well as the 15" H frames.
They have arrived and I think i should add Fugly to the description. They are blasting away in the lounge on internet radio to get them run in a bit.
I'm trying to get hold of a pair of the Foster sub amps for the bass dept. Only one problem though. Minimum order for international is $200 and I dont need 6 of 'em
Anyone fancy ordering me a pair and forwarding them on? Paypal up front of course
Just checked the shipping and it would be crazy - way more than the amps value - o well......
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Godzilla, your review is great
It looks like the 12 Eminence is the speaker analogy to Ford Mustang V8
You know a Corvette is faster and a Viper is more powerful, but the smile never leaves your face while you are driving your pony it just does make you happy and that's all!
Can you fell the texture of the electric guitar with them? I mean with parts of your body... Like a pressure wave from an explosion... Like "clean mean sound"...
Are they relatively linear in their response?
Happy new year in 4 hour advance from me!
It looks like the 12 Eminence is the speaker analogy to Ford Mustang V8
You know a Corvette is faster and a Viper is more powerful, but the smile never leaves your face while you are driving your pony
it just does make you happy and that's all!Can you fell the texture of the electric guitar with them? I mean with parts of your body... Like a pressure wave from an explosion... Like "clean mean sound"...
Are they relatively linear in their response?
Happy new year in 4 hour advance from me!
12LTA are fun - I've run them OB, 4.5 cubic foot pipe (not optimum) and stuffed one into the tiny Karlson 12. For me, 12LTA lacks the subjective transient ability of Eminence's 80 and 95oz magnet 12s.
K12 input Z - slits sealed with tape, Beta 12LTA
brief listening of k12 sealed seemed pretty taut and reasonably uncolored on the deeper drums, opening one or two slits gave the bass more life. At one meter I get only about 112dB bass drum peaks with my little amp and have seen K12 with P-Audio do nearly 118 on the same amp. The little k8 built like K15 loaded with Sammi could do almost as much on the deep drum and ~2dB more than 12LTA - although not liked by the fullrange crowd, those Sammi imo were real bargains for strong & reliable noise makers at $11.60 each and even when they reached ~$20ea. FWIW I'd say 12LTA is somewhat better than a hole filler and usable in K12 with some rear chamber damping. It may be interesting to damp the slits with a porous cloth or foam. I tend to like 30 degree baffle couplers. Beta 12LTa is rated 3.5mm xmax but IIRC its real overhang is 0.080 inches. A helper tweeter coming in kinda low might be nice to help 12LTA.
Rear chamber empty other than some thin felt lining
Rear chamber filled with polyfill (not compressed - not fluffed)
K12 input Z - slits sealed with tape, Beta 12LTA
brief listening of k12 sealed seemed pretty taut and reasonably uncolored on the deeper drums, opening one or two slits gave the bass more life. At one meter I get only about 112dB bass drum peaks with my little amp and have seen K12 with P-Audio do nearly 118 on the same amp. The little k8 built like K15 loaded with Sammi could do almost as much on the deep drum and ~2dB more than 12LTA - although not liked by the fullrange crowd, those Sammi imo were real bargains for strong & reliable noise makers at $11.60 each and even when they reached ~$20ea. FWIW I'd say 12LTA is somewhat better than a hole filler and usable in K12 with some rear chamber damping. It may be interesting to damp the slits with a porous cloth or foam. I tend to like 30 degree baffle couplers. Beta 12LTa is rated 3.5mm xmax but IIRC its real overhang is 0.080 inches. A helper tweeter coming in kinda low might be nice to help 12LTA.
Rear chamber empty other than some thin felt lining
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Rear chamber filled with polyfill (not compressed - not fluffed)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
>>> It looks like the 12 Eminence is the speaker analogy to Ford Mustang V8...
Yes, think American muscle car! By no means perfect but enjoyable with a dose of high performance.
T101, yes you feel the music. They sound linear to me... simply add helper tweeter and woofer. No speaker is perfect but this one is very efficient, dynamic and clear sounding with a sonic signature that's unique but in no way objectionable. I think they work great with the Eminence compression tweeter but others enjoy them with efficient Fostex and the old Radio Shack pod tweeters. Too bad they don't go lower in the bass on their own in smaller cabinets... that would be fantastic! Unless in a 4 cubic foot box or larger they should be part of a three way system to take advantage of their wide range and other good qualities. New Years at my house, they will be put to the test tonight!
Freddyi, thanks for your comments. I've yet to work with the larger Eminence drivers but expect they will be great! The 12lta is most in line with my 'full range' ideals these days. Good fun all around!
Zilla
Yes, think American muscle car! By no means perfect but enjoyable with a dose of high performance.
T101, yes you feel the music. They sound linear to me... simply add helper tweeter and woofer. No speaker is perfect but this one is very efficient, dynamic and clear sounding with a sonic signature that's unique but in no way objectionable. I think they work great with the Eminence compression tweeter but others enjoy them with efficient Fostex and the old Radio Shack pod tweeters. Too bad they don't go lower in the bass on their own in smaller cabinets... that would be fantastic! Unless in a 4 cubic foot box or larger they should be part of a three way system to take advantage of their wide range and other good qualities. New Years at my house, they will be put to the test tonight!
Freddyi, thanks for your comments. I've yet to work with the larger Eminence drivers but expect they will be great! The 12lta is most in line with my 'full range' ideals these days. Good fun all around!
Zilla
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