LineSource,
Perhaps you should take the initiative to lead a project to develop one together with the group brain trust, very much like how the SEOS waveguide was developed. Use the new TPL-150/S or TPL-150/B as base and liaise with horn.pl to do the mould. Then put me on top of the list for 5 of them
I actually had a fairly large (app. 20 cm deep) 60 x 30 degree waveguide build for the Beyma TPL-150 in order to match my 60 x 30 conical mid horns. Obviously, the dispersion was now matched successfully, but I had also hoped that the larger waveguide would load the Beyma TPL-150 down to 1,000 Hz were my conical horns with the Fane Studio 8M roll off. However, it did not. I do not think that the Beyma TPL simply can be taken any lower than 1,200-1,300 no matter the size of the waveguide.
However, that being said I really like the sound of the Beyma TPL-150H (to my ears significantly better than the compression driver/horn combos that I have tried), and contrary to some other people I actually feel that it can be used down to 1,300 Hz (with the Beyma waveguide) or so, but this may have to do with the fact that I use fairly steep filters (at least 24 dB/octave).
The real problem is finding a cone driver that keeps up with the Beyma with regards to speed, clarity and resolution. The Fane Studio 8M sounds great in a horn, but rolls of in my conical horns around 1,000 Hz, so recently I have been trying out different drivers in an OB (10" PHL 3451 and double 8" Audax HT210T0). Both the PHL and the Audax sound fairly good, but I still feel that they struggle a bit keeping up with the Beyma.
I wish that Beyma (or someone else) would make a GIANT (and affordable) amt that would work down to, say, 700 Hz and all the way up! Some of the new Pro Mundorf amt's may do the job with the right waveguide, but unfortunately it is so expensive just trying it out.....
Best regards
Peter
However, that being said I really like the sound of the Beyma TPL-150H (to my ears significantly better than the compression driver/horn combos that I have tried), and contrary to some other people I actually feel that it can be used down to 1,300 Hz (with the Beyma waveguide) or so, but this may have to do with the fact that I use fairly steep filters (at least 24 dB/octave).
The real problem is finding a cone driver that keeps up with the Beyma with regards to speed, clarity and resolution. The Fane Studio 8M sounds great in a horn, but rolls of in my conical horns around 1,000 Hz, so recently I have been trying out different drivers in an OB (10" PHL 3451 and double 8" Audax HT210T0). Both the PHL and the Audax sound fairly good, but I still feel that they struggle a bit keeping up with the Beyma.
I wish that Beyma (or someone else) would make a GIANT (and affordable) amt that would work down to, say, 700 Hz and all the way up! Some of the new Pro Mundorf amt's may do the job with the right waveguide, but unfortunately it is so expensive just trying it out.....
Best regards
Peter
" Fastest" 8 inch midrange to match TPL
Hi Peter,
Interesting post, can you post the data sheet on the PHL 3451 driver you use, I cant find it on the PHL website, thanks!
I have used this driver without a horn and its fab match with the TPL
http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/20_pdf/2520_2530.pdf
I crossed it over and (Eq'd) with a DEQX using steep linear phase filters, around 60 dB per octave. I settled on a 1.8KHz crossover point.
Look at the Mms to Bl ratio....Wow!
It can really bring high SPL percussion into your room and also has such rapid energy decay ( low energy storage) that it makes low midrange beautifully textured and natural but never bloated or murky.
Overall great combination, if I was looking for a floor stander / stand mount design this would be hard to beat from 150Hz upwards.
I would love to hear two or even 4 of these per side in a small line array matched with two TPL's per side. You could run the 4 PHL's all the way down to 100Hz and then use a nice 15 inch Pro driver...Mmmm that would be lovely!!
Cheers
D.
Hi Peter,
Interesting post, can you post the data sheet on the PHL 3451 driver you use, I cant find it on the PHL website, thanks!
I have used this driver without a horn and its fab match with the TPL
http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/20_pdf/2520_2530.pdf
I crossed it over and (Eq'd) with a DEQX using steep linear phase filters, around 60 dB per octave. I settled on a 1.8KHz crossover point.
Look at the Mms to Bl ratio....Wow!
It can really bring high SPL percussion into your room and also has such rapid energy decay ( low energy storage) that it makes low midrange beautifully textured and natural but never bloated or murky.
Overall great combination, if I was looking for a floor stander / stand mount design this would be hard to beat from 150Hz upwards.
I would love to hear two or even 4 of these per side in a small line array matched with two TPL's per side. You could run the 4 PHL's all the way down to 100Hz and then use a nice 15 inch Pro driver...Mmmm that would be lovely!!
Cheers
D.
I wish that Beyma (or someone else) would make a GIANT (and affordable) amt that would work down to, say, 700 Hz and all the way up! Some of the new Pro Mundorf amt's may do the job with the right waveguide, but unfortunately it is so expensive just trying it out.....
Best regards
Peter
Hi Peter
beside Mundorf, there is Bernd Lohmann from Germany. He builds amt's that go down to 600hz, and he is developing one that goes down to 100hz
Inferenz 345 Digital Dipol Ripol - Seite 3 - DIY-HIFI-Forum
bel-AMT: ausführliche Vergleichsmessungen von Ton-Feile, Lautsprecher - HIFI-FORUM
the price back in 2008 was Euro$ 235,00 a pair for the top model, which is very fair. Don't know how much he is charging today. Customers commented that his service is excellent. Email address is bel.amt@gmx.net
best regards
Angelo
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Hi Overkill Audio,
Here it is (see attachment). It is a dedicated midrange driver. Very much like the PHL 8" - just bigger. Very efficient, and low x-max.
Magnetar used it at some point in an OB too matched with a ESS Heil, if I remember correctly.
Best regards
Peter
Here it is (see attachment). It is a dedicated midrange driver. Very much like the PHL 8" - just bigger. Very efficient, and low x-max.
Magnetar used it at some point in an OB too matched with a ESS Heil, if I remember correctly.
Best regards
Peter
Hi Angelo,
Thanks a lot! That is very interesting - I will check it out for sure!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks a lot! That is very interesting - I will check it out for sure!
Best regards
Peter
Hi Angelo,
The p.audio drivers were used in a conical horn, whereas the PHL is used in an open baffle (no horn and no back chamber), so it is difficult to compare. I am at work at the moment and haven't got pictures here, but I will upload them in the weekend.
The p.audio needed some eq, so at the time when I used the horn, I returned to the Fane Studio 8M, that was quite 'flat' in the conical horn. Due to a divorce I had to move to a much smaller location, so I had to ditch the large 3-way horn rig I used to have (including 29 Hz straight bass horns!), and now I am trying to make a speaker based on the Beyma TPL-150H but with a much smaller foot print.
Best regards
Peter
The p.audio drivers were used in a conical horn, whereas the PHL is used in an open baffle (no horn and no back chamber), so it is difficult to compare. I am at work at the moment and haven't got pictures here, but I will upload them in the weekend.
The p.audio needed some eq, so at the time when I used the horn, I returned to the Fane Studio 8M, that was quite 'flat' in the conical horn. Due to a divorce I had to move to a much smaller location, so I had to ditch the large 3-way horn rig I used to have (including 29 Hz straight bass horns!), and now I am trying to make a speaker based on the Beyma TPL-150H but with a much smaller foot print.
Best regards
Peter
Mms to BL as a guide for speed.
Thanks Peter,
The 10 inch is a nice driver for sure, did it have the velvet surround or the cloth surround?
32g Mms divided by 15.7BL = 2.03
Juggling the variables is always fun...Size & beaming Vs power handling & efficiency Vs Fs, Vs Mms / BL, Vs weight & cost...
I looked at the PHL 3450, which is beautiful...Nice low Fs 80Hz ... http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/25_pdf/3450.pdf
But ...30g Mms divided by 17.3BL = 1.73
The two reasons I went for the 8 inch are speed, the Mms to Bl of the 2520 is 18g divided by 14.3 BL = 1.25. ( The 16 Ohm version is 18.2g divided by 20.9 BL which gives an astonishing 0.87 !!
Also the 8 inch off axis response blends beautifully with the TPL without having to use any horn or waveguide.
A 10 inch is already beaming quite a lot by 1.6Khz to 1.8KHz.
I know a lot of guys don't believe that the Mms divided by BL is a good guide of "speed" and they maintain mass is irrelevant and all that counts is inductance ....I am very happy to say I disagree !
All the best
D.
Thanks Peter,
The 10 inch is a nice driver for sure, did it have the velvet surround or the cloth surround?
32g Mms divided by 15.7BL = 2.03
Juggling the variables is always fun...Size & beaming Vs power handling & efficiency Vs Fs, Vs Mms / BL, Vs weight & cost...
I looked at the PHL 3450, which is beautiful...Nice low Fs 80Hz ... http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/25_pdf/3450.pdf
But ...30g Mms divided by 17.3BL = 1.73
The two reasons I went for the 8 inch are speed, the Mms to Bl of the 2520 is 18g divided by 14.3 BL = 1.25. ( The 16 Ohm version is 18.2g divided by 20.9 BL which gives an astonishing 0.87 !!
Also the 8 inch off axis response blends beautifully with the TPL without having to use any horn or waveguide.
A 10 inch is already beaming quite a lot by 1.6Khz to 1.8KHz.
I know a lot of guys don't believe that the Mms divided by BL is a good guide of "speed" and they maintain mass is irrelevant and all that counts is inductance ....I am very happy to say I disagree !
All the best
D.
You are welcome! The PHL 3451 has a cloth surround. I have not myself tried any of the PHL 8"-ers (or any other PHLs, for that matter), but I know that André P. from e-speakers.com at least at some point preferred the 3451 to any other of the PHLs for mids.
This is the one of the real downsides of diy: It is awfully expensive to try out all the candidate drivers
Best regards
Peter
This is the one of the real downsides of diy: It is awfully expensive to try out all the candidate drivers
Best regards
Peter
Can never try em all!
Thanks again Peter,
For sure its very expensive to "buy and try" all the drivers within your chosen frequency band(s)...It helps a lot to hear your views as they are based on actual experience.
This does give a reference of sorts and I usually try to " cross reference" with my own and / or other known ears....Even when I know that I like the opposite type of sound to someone its great if they really love a specific driver in a certain application...Its all good info if based on 1st hand listening.
Cheers
D.
Thanks again Peter,
For sure its very expensive to "buy and try" all the drivers within your chosen frequency band(s)...It helps a lot to hear your views as they are based on actual experience.
This does give a reference of sorts and I usually try to " cross reference" with my own and / or other known ears....Even when I know that I like the opposite type of sound to someone its great if they really love a specific driver in a certain application...Its all good info if based on 1st hand listening.
Cheers
D.
Hi. I have the "inConcert Miles", one of Stig Erik`s creations. I think it is a great design, but (as Stig Erik also has stated) it would benefit from a dedicated midrange. A fellow in Sweden has made this version, wich I would like to replicate.
He uses the Beyma 10MI100 between 150-1000 if I remember correctly. I would want to cross a little higher. About 1600hz. Beyma is my prefered brand because of good prices here, but I can go for something else if it is a lot better. What would you go for in this config? 8"/10"/12"? At what point will the distance between the 15" woofers become a problem..?
He uses the Beyma 10MI100 between 150-1000 if I remember correctly. I would want to cross a little higher. About 1600hz. Beyma is my prefered brand because of good prices here, but I can go for something else if it is a lot better. What would you go for in this config? 8"/10"/12"? At what point will the distance between the 15" woofers become a problem..?
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Clean slate...
Hi Teddytusen,
I always feel a bit nervous commenting on anything that the Stig has designed cause he is basically God in DIY semi Pro audio....He really knows what he is doing.
But...Having said that and subject to Stigs approval....
In my limited ( compared to the Stig) experience with the TPL there are four important characteristics that make or break the design:
(1) The speed of the TPL needs to be matched by the midrange .
(2) The crossover point needs to be nearer 1,600 Hz or 1,800 Hz not down nearer 1,200Hz.
(3) If using the Beyma ( or similar) horn you must be careful to match the directional / beaming characteristics of the midrange to the horn directivity.
(4) If using the TPL without horn, an 8 inch midrange, ( I used the 2520) http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/20_pdf/2520_2530.pdf
( or 2530 MTM pair) blends beautifully at 1,600Hz to 1,800Hz crossover. I was using a DEQX with linear phase 60dB per octave slopes so this might be different with other slopes.
(5) Most 10 inch or 12 inch midranges will require lower crossover points as they start beaming lower in frequency. Also they will be " slower" ie not as good transient response and you will hear the difference.
Hope this helps and good luck!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Teddytusen,
I always feel a bit nervous commenting on anything that the Stig has designed cause he is basically God in DIY semi Pro audio....He really knows what he is doing.
But...Having said that and subject to Stigs approval....
In my limited ( compared to the Stig) experience with the TPL there are four important characteristics that make or break the design:
(1) The speed of the TPL needs to be matched by the midrange .
(2) The crossover point needs to be nearer 1,600 Hz or 1,800 Hz not down nearer 1,200Hz.
(3) If using the Beyma ( or similar) horn you must be careful to match the directional / beaming characteristics of the midrange to the horn directivity.
(4) If using the TPL without horn, an 8 inch midrange, ( I used the 2520) http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/20_pdf/2520_2530.pdf
( or 2530 MTM pair) blends beautifully at 1,600Hz to 1,800Hz crossover. I was using a DEQX with linear phase 60dB per octave slopes so this might be different with other slopes.
(5) Most 10 inch or 12 inch midranges will require lower crossover points as they start beaming lower in frequency. Also they will be " slower" ie not as good transient response and you will hear the difference.
Hope this helps and good luck!
Cheers
Derek.
Thanks for the input Derek. Much appreciated. the Stig definitely knows what he is doing. That I hear every day. But as mentioned, also he has acknowledged that the inConcert Miles would benefit from a dedicated midrange. He has recomended the 12G40, and there is at least one high profile "Miles"-system here in Norway that uses this midrange. Personally I have been eyeing the 10MI100. Both because of the high effiency, and the fact that many concider it a great midrange.
I like to build my own speakers (I have Econowaves in my living room, in addition to the Miles) but lack technical knowledge. As to your characteristic number three...could you elaborate on what you think would be the best xo-point for a 10"? I know this is a bit general but bare with me.
Any thoughts on the 15" spacing question in my first post..?
the Stig definitely knows what he is doing. That I hear every day. But as mentioned, also he has acknowledged that the inConcert Miles would benefit from a dedicated midrange. He has recomended the 12G40, and there is at least one high profile "Miles"-system here in Norway that uses this midrange. Personally I have been eyeing the 10MI100. Both because of the high effiency, and the fact that many concider it a great midrange. I like to build my own speakers (I have Econowaves in my living room, in addition to the Miles) but lack technical knowledge. As to your characteristic number three...could you elaborate on what you think would be the best xo-point for a 10"? I know this is a bit general but bare with me.
Any thoughts on the 15" spacing question in my first post..?
10 inch crossover point and driver spacing
Hiya,
Re driver spacing, if you can keep centre to centre spacing at or below half of one wavelength at the crossover point you will be fine.
Closer is better, some say a quarter of one wavelength, but that's going to be a tough call and place quite severe restrictions on the design.
Re crossover points Vs driver Sd...
In an ideal world I would crossover a 12 inch around 1,000Hz and a 10 inch around 1,400Hz, but having said that....20 years ago I built a passive two way kit called the "Vortex" from Wilmslow Audio in the UK.
Later I ditched the passive crossover and used an analog ( no DSP back then!) and crossed it over to the Morel 1 inch dome at 2KHz, it was not bad at all...
The Beyma 10 inch looks great on paper, I have never used it myself.
I know the PHL and Volt 10 inch bass mids and dedicated midrange drivers are really astonishing.
To keep things in perspective....
I think a lot will depend on crossover type and slopes, ie a good DEQX /Dolby Lake or good PC based software crossover to minimise phase distortion and driver overlap is way, way, way more important than a bit of over or under lap on Beaming....
I believe beaming and comb filtering are the two most over rated problems in speaker design...driver selection, cabinet construction, internal damping and crossover types are all more important...get them right and your system will rock even if in theory it suffers from some beaming / comb filtering issues...
All the best
Derek.
Hiya,
Re driver spacing, if you can keep centre to centre spacing at or below half of one wavelength at the crossover point you will be fine.
Closer is better, some say a quarter of one wavelength, but that's going to be a tough call and place quite severe restrictions on the design.
Re crossover points Vs driver Sd...
In an ideal world I would crossover a 12 inch around 1,000Hz and a 10 inch around 1,400Hz, but having said that....20 years ago I built a passive two way kit called the "Vortex" from Wilmslow Audio in the UK.
Later I ditched the passive crossover and used an analog ( no DSP back then!) and crossed it over to the Morel 1 inch dome at 2KHz, it was not bad at all...
The Beyma 10 inch looks great on paper, I have never used it myself.
I know the PHL and Volt 10 inch bass mids and dedicated midrange drivers are really astonishing.
To keep things in perspective....
I think a lot will depend on crossover type and slopes, ie a good DEQX /Dolby Lake or good PC based software crossover to minimise phase distortion and driver overlap is way, way, way more important than a bit of over or under lap on Beaming....
I believe beaming and comb filtering are the two most over rated problems in speaker design...driver selection, cabinet construction, internal damping and crossover types are all more important...get them right and your system will rock even if in theory it suffers from some beaming / comb filtering issues...
All the best
Derek.
Thank you for chiming in Stig Erik.
Any reason for me to be concerned about the 12G40 having lower effiency than the TPL-150H and the two 15P80Nd? I am using miniDSP for XO. I dont have extreme amounts of watts available atm.
The plan is to open the chamber on the TPL and dampen the box. What about the midrange box? (the system will be built as modules btw) BR, sealed or open back heavily stuffed..? I see people are concerned about the back wave in midrange boxes.
Any reason for me to be concerned about the 12G40 having lower effiency than the TPL-150H and the two 15P80Nd? I am using miniDSP for XO. I dont have extreme amounts of watts available atm.
The plan is to open the chamber on the TPL and dampen the box. What about the midrange box? (the system will be built as modules btw) BR, sealed or open back heavily stuffed..? I see people are concerned about the back wave in midrange boxes.
No concern if you do it like it was intended - with a digital active XO and DSP. I have not looked into a passive filter with this driver combo.
The midrange box should be sealed in my opinion, quite deep and with the rear 50% filled with damping material to suppress the rear wave. Filling the entire volume is not a good idea in my opinion. There should be some air between the driver and the damping material. This is because the damping material will reflect some sound, and a greater distance between the driver and the damping will reduce the level of this reflection.
The midrange box should be sealed in my opinion, quite deep and with the rear 50% filled with damping material to suppress the rear wave. Filling the entire volume is not a good idea in my opinion. There should be some air between the driver and the damping material. This is because the damping material will reflect some sound, and a greater distance between the driver and the damping will reduce the level of this reflection.