Hi Angelo,
That is very interesting indeed! I do not know the specs of the Raytech driver, but maybe you should consider trying out a steeper high pass for the driver in order to relieve it for bass duty. Please do report back
Best regards
Peter
That is very interesting indeed! I do not know the specs of the Raytech driver, but maybe you should consider trying out a steeper high pass for the driver in order to relieve it for bass duty. Please do report back
Best regards
Peter
hello
i have made some changes in my setup in the last ten days. In order to have more flexibility with different crossover points, i introduced a GroundSound DCN23 active crossover. With its software, its easy to change the slopes and crossover points in a few minutes. Since i had some doubts to set it up, Peter ( PK ) was kind to help me over Skype. My first test was to set the crossover at 150hz third order, no lowpass. I also measured Ray's AMT frequency response, and got confirmed: The frequency response is very wide , from 150hz up to 14khz. I crossed also at 500hz, and 1,5khz, but the Beyma 12p80nd sounds suddenly soooo colored. ( something that seems rather strange to me, because in combination with the the TPL150, crossed at 1,5khz, i was loving it. ) The fastness and purity is gone, and it sounds now rather " thick " and congested. Thats a experience which is repeating, and happened also in the past, when i switched from horns to the Beyma TPL150. Only after hearing something " better ", i became aware of the limitations of my previous setup. Hooked also quick the 38" lower midrange horn up. But that sounds almost unlistenable...... Last i set the crossover at 200hz, and i love its performance: its simply gorgeous . I use the bass line array up to 40hz , 4th order, which helps with sub frequencies, without sounding boomy. The Beyma 12p80nd , up to 200hz, sounds wonderful. Very defined , fast, controlled, and still soft. A good partner with Ray's amt's. :=)) The overall balance is surprisingly good as well.
Angelo
i have made some changes in my setup in the last ten days. In order to have more flexibility with different crossover points, i introduced a GroundSound DCN23 active crossover. With its software, its easy to change the slopes and crossover points in a few minutes. Since i had some doubts to set it up, Peter ( PK ) was kind to help me over Skype. My first test was to set the crossover at 150hz third order, no lowpass. I also measured Ray's AMT frequency response, and got confirmed: The frequency response is very wide , from 150hz up to 14khz. I crossed also at 500hz, and 1,5khz, but the Beyma 12p80nd sounds suddenly soooo colored. ( something that seems rather strange to me, because in combination with the the TPL150, crossed at 1,5khz, i was loving it. ) The fastness and purity is gone, and it sounds now rather " thick " and congested. Thats a experience which is repeating, and happened also in the past, when i switched from horns to the Beyma TPL150. Only after hearing something " better ", i became aware of the limitations of my previous setup. Hooked also quick the 38" lower midrange horn up. But that sounds almost unlistenable...... Last i set the crossover at 200hz, and i love its performance: its simply gorgeous . I use the bass line array up to 40hz , 4th order, which helps with sub frequencies, without sounding boomy. The Beyma 12p80nd , up to 200hz, sounds wonderful. Very defined , fast, controlled, and still soft. A good partner with Ray's amt's. :=)) The overall balance is surprisingly good as well.
Angelo
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Am I to understand Beyma TPL150 is finally out ?
I think there is too big difference in radiation pattern between 12" midrange and TPL150 at the cross over. How about a smaller midrange, 6-8" ?
Hi Elias ,
why " finally " ??
I like the combo TPL150/12p80nd very very much. I have no experience with smaller cone midrange drivers.
Angelo
Elias
the main difference is that Ray's amts extend the purity, naturalness and speed of the TPL150 down to 200hz, and even lower. And there is no crossover from 200hz up. Thats quit a achievement. A supertweeter is necessary for frequencies above 15khz.
Angelo
Thanks, I got confused because I've been following you excursions on TPL150 and earlier you found (as I understood) Beyma 12" was the best match.
But now I hear "the Beyma 12p80nd sounds suddenly soooo colored." Which propably means the search for the best midrange has to continue ?
I believe one part of positive attributes of TPL150 is very wide horisontal radiation pattern and the way it illuminates room side walls. I've found that for a 'natural' reproduction in a small room that is essential to have strong side wall reflections. This is what for example Toole argues for, too.
But now I hear "the Beyma 12p80nd sounds suddenly soooo colored."
Which propably means the search for the best midrange has to continue ? I believe one part of positive attributes of TPL150 is very wide horisontal radiation pattern and the way it illuminates room side walls. I've found that for a 'natural' reproduction in a small room that is essential to have strong side wall reflections. This is what for example Toole argues for, too.
Thanks, I got confused because I've been following you excursions on TPL150 and earlier you found (as I understood) Beyma 12" was the best match.
But now I hear "the Beyma 12p80nd sounds suddenly soooo colored."
I believe one part of positive attributes of TPL150 is very wide horisontal radiation pattern and the way it illuminates room side walls. I've found that for a 'natural' reproduction in a small room that is essential to have strong side wall reflections. This is what for example Toole argues for, too.
Elias
there is no cone speaker, that i know of, that tops amt's in certain aspects, specially neutrality and naturalness. The 12p80nd is amazing in its own right, but compare it to Ray's AMT is unfair.
Angelo
Hi Pooh
the membrane is Kapton, and it uses very strong neodym magnet. When they arrived, they were stuck together, and i had to use my whole body weight to separate them. These are not commercially available at the moment. Maybe in the future.
Angelo
Member
Joined 2003
Hi folks,
I am finishing our semi-dedicated home theatre in the next few months. This means I really have to decide on the speakers. Two LLT subwoofers with 18" tuned to 13 Hz are long done and waiting to mate with five full sized "satellites". It is a large room, some 8,50 x 6,60 meter. It is a box-in-box construction on a floating concrete floor and sports mostly diffusive treatments. I could say this space is mostly aimed for movies but all the best movies have great music in them, so...
Mister Tangen's inConcert Miles is what I would like to build, based on the facts that a/ I like the sound of AMT tweeters and b/ I fancy big speakers such as B&W CT8.2 (which cost €15.000 each). I can build a house, hence I can also build speaker cabinets. Picking drivers and designing crossovers however I cannot. But reading the stories from BEF and atledreier elsewhere convinced me I can do the Miles.
Here's where I stand now:
1/ To use an active crossover in the form of one miniDSP 10x10 Hd which can deal with all five speakers.
2/ Use the original Beyma drivers TPL-150H and two 15p80Nd.
3/ Put the center speaker behind our AT from Seymour AV (330 x 140 cm). This means it's best to use the MTM layout since this moves all drivers behind the screen while still being vertical.
4/ Use MTM for the other four (in room standing) speakers also since this way they are all the same height which is preferred for optimal panning and makes it easier to tackle the first reflection points.
5/ Rather than putting the MTM on stands, make a taller cabinet but less deep. Maybe even have a go at making curved cabinets for the four in room speakers.
6/ Aim for a 40 to 50 Hz crossover to the subs.
Thing is I started reading about a three-way version being superior. The 12G40 was mentioned, but isn't that a bass driver? The 10MI100 was suggested by Mr Tangen himself. Isn't that a better option as this is a proper midrange? If so, how big needs the cabinet for it to be and which are the high and low crossover points recommended?
I would like to build the center first to see how it all works out. Any suggestion/advice/warning... is deeply appreciated!
I am finishing our semi-dedicated home theatre in the next few months. This means I really have to decide on the speakers. Two LLT subwoofers with 18" tuned to 13 Hz are long done and waiting to mate with five full sized "satellites". It is a large room, some 8,50 x 6,60 meter. It is a box-in-box construction on a floating concrete floor and sports mostly diffusive treatments. I could say this space is mostly aimed for movies but all the best movies have great music in them, so...
Mister Tangen's inConcert Miles is what I would like to build, based on the facts that a/ I like the sound of AMT tweeters and b/ I fancy big speakers such as B&W CT8.2 (which cost €15.000 each). I can build a house, hence I can also build speaker cabinets. Picking drivers and designing crossovers however I cannot. But reading the stories from BEF and atledreier elsewhere convinced me I can do the Miles.
Here's where I stand now:
1/ To use an active crossover in the form of one miniDSP 10x10 Hd which can deal with all five speakers.
2/ Use the original Beyma drivers TPL-150H and two 15p80Nd.
3/ Put the center speaker behind our AT from Seymour AV (330 x 140 cm). This means it's best to use the MTM layout since this moves all drivers behind the screen while still being vertical.
4/ Use MTM for the other four (in room standing) speakers also since this way they are all the same height which is preferred for optimal panning and makes it easier to tackle the first reflection points.
5/ Rather than putting the MTM on stands, make a taller cabinet but less deep. Maybe even have a go at making curved cabinets for the four in room speakers.
6/ Aim for a 40 to 50 Hz crossover to the subs.
Thing is I started reading about a three-way version being superior. The 12G40 was mentioned, but isn't that a bass driver? The 10MI100 was suggested by Mr Tangen himself. Isn't that a better option as this is a proper midrange? If so, how big needs the cabinet for it to be and which are the high and low crossover points recommended?
I would like to build the center first to see how it all works out. Any suggestion/advice/warning... is deeply appreciated!
Nobody?
Mr Tangen states that one would need two midranges to keep sensitivity equal. In a WMTMW layout, this would mean that the total height of the five drivers would be at least 150 cm [39+21+23,5+21+39+spacing]. Which is higher than the AT screen [140 cm]. Would that not cause trouble if the woofers are a few cm covered by the screen frame?
Another option would be to forget about the midrange and replace the two 15P80Nd with two 12P80Nd. I guess this would reduce the usable low frequency output with about 10 Hz but since it is part of a surround set with two subs that would be okay. Simply raise the crossover a bit. Then maybe the crossover between 12P80Nd and TPL150H could be 1200 Hz. The cabinets would also be more of a "normal" size: probably 130 liter instead of 210 liter of the standard Miles. In this case I would make them as MTM stand-mounts on top of a 40 cm high stand.
Mr Tangen states that one would need two midranges to keep sensitivity equal. In a WMTMW layout, this would mean that the total height of the five drivers would be at least 150 cm [39+21+23,5+21+39+spacing]. Which is higher than the AT screen [140 cm]. Would that not cause trouble if the woofers are a few cm covered by the screen frame?
Another option would be to forget about the midrange and replace the two 15P80Nd with two 12P80Nd. I guess this would reduce the usable low frequency output with about 10 Hz but since it is part of a surround set with two subs that would be okay. Simply raise the crossover a bit. Then maybe the crossover between 12P80Nd and TPL150H could be 1200 Hz. The cabinets would also be more of a "normal" size: probably 130 liter instead of 210 liter of the standard Miles. In this case I would make them as MTM stand-mounts on top of a 40 cm high stand.
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Erwin,
If you want a smooth flat response the TPL-150(H) should be used above 2k.
The lowest cut off that I have used is at 1850hz LR48.
There is a bump in the 4k region which can be smoothened with a notch filter/eq, (-3.7db @4k, Q=1.8)
(+2db @10k, Q=2) for high frequency extension.
With the notch filter the sensitivity will be down to about about 97-98db.
Suitable mid would be a 6"-8".
The horn of the TPL150 is not suited for hifi use. It does not image well and the high frequency extension is decreased. A short wave guide to match the directivity and physical alignment of the 6" or 8" would be better.
Dan
If you want a smooth flat response the TPL-150(H) should be used above 2k.
The lowest cut off that I have used is at 1850hz LR48.
There is a bump in the 4k region which can be smoothened with a notch filter/eq, (-3.7db @4k, Q=1.8)
(+2db @10k, Q=2) for high frequency extension.
With the notch filter the sensitivity will be down to about about 97-98db.
Suitable mid would be a 6"-8".
The horn of the TPL150 is not suited for hifi use. It does not image well and the high frequency extension is decreased. A short wave guide to match the directivity and physical alignment of the 6" or 8" would be better.
Dan
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I have used the 12p80nd and the TPL150H in a 2 way crossed at1.2k and is one of the most fab speakers I have heard. If done right this tweeter can handle this crossover with no problem and sound almost as good as the RAAL 70-20XR but with the extra spl. More people should be using this combo. It also makes for a wonderful studio monitor.
Can you send me Ray's email address or a link to more information on the the low mid AMT?
Thanks
Someone told me the Dayton Audio PS220-8 is VERY good sounding , and at us$ 256,00 a pair rather inexpensive :
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver | 295-346
if using only for lower midrange, the whizzer could be cut off.
Dayton Audio PS220-8 8" Point Source Full-Range Neo Driver | 295-346
if using only for lower midrange, the whizzer could be cut off.
The Dayton PS220-8 is a full range design with a whizzer cone and a phase plug.
Dayton also sells the PM220-8 midbass with a standard dust cap. The T/S specs model well, but the bumpy SPL/freq curve raises concerns.
