I would take issue with this. Interactions between speakers and amp are quite complex IME. I have had amps that sounded just fine with 2-way speakers, but sounded unlistenable on a single full range driver--all hisssy & sibilant. And then I have a pair of Fostex F120A (Alnico) drivers that sound pitiful on almost every SS amp I tried--high freqs just fade away. Put those F120A on almost any tube amp & they sing beautifully. The different amps produce stunningly different results. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't heard it myself. Amp topology matters!
Cheers, Jim
so drivers are magic and can hide and even produce resolution in the ogirinal audio that doesn't exist? I never knew that. and and we can't forget about the magic amp that will do the same thing....
sorry, but if your source sucks, and your amp sucks, no matter how good your drivers are, it will suck.
Here is what you said: "Yes or course in theory, but in practice the waveform produced by the am is so close to the original that differences in drivers mask any issues here as the best driver is orders or magnitude worse than the best amp in this respect and always will be, unless there is some major new breakthrough; its by far the weakest link in the audio chain. Application of a bit of practical knowledge and practical common sense is the key here."
Here is what I said in response: "so drivers are magic and can hide and even produce resolution in the original audio that doesn't exist? I never knew that. and and we can't forget about the magic amp that will do the same thing....
sorry, but if your source sucks, and your amp sucks, no matter how good your drivers are, it will suck."
Seems pretty clear to me. You claimed great or perfect drivers could mask deficiencies in the original source, and amp. The reason it is interpreted that way is you claimed the drivers are the WEAKEST link in the chain, which is objectively false. The source audio is the weakest link. If the source sucks, you will reproduce the shitty source material perfectly with a perfect amp and a perfect driver. The second worse thing in the chain is the drivers (because there is no perfect driver - physical limitations), then lastly, the amp (because as you say, drivers can mask deficiencies in the amp).
Not quite sure what happened to this thread...it has taken a number of twists and turns...I suppose that was inevitable given the title...
I think it's the state of things in general in the country. We are all on edge... no matter what side of the isle people are on. Unfortunately, there is not enough
in the world to fix it either.Best Drivers are reserved and available only to high end manufacturers...We the DIY's get second best and leftovers.....and I disagree, ...there is enough in the free world to fix it....
-rev
in the free world to fix it....-rev
Not quite sure what happened to this thread...it has taken a number of twists and turns...I suppose that was inevitable given the title...
Best Drivers are reserved and available only to high end manufacturers...We the DIY's get second best and leftovers.....and I disagree, ...there is enough
-rev
Hmm, if buying over the counter [OTC], then true, but IME as just a DIYer, when I've gone to a manufacturer with specific specs, they've either not charged me extra or only a reasonable surcharge with the trade-off being it sometimes took awhile to get them.
Agree, though the breweries, etc., would no doubt disagree. Then again, I've known/read about way too many folks that died one way or another from alcohol 'poisoning', so maybe they just didn't leave enough for the rest of us.
GM
OK, thanks, great info! I've an old Pioneer Elite 23FD BD player that is/was supposedly a pretty decent CD/DVD transport and Pioneer Elite PD-65, an alleged entry level SOTA CD player in the '90s, so we'll see.........
GM
Assuming it's a tube amp, then what is the amp's output impedance [not tap value]?
Room layout with planned speaker locations, etc.?
Personal/desired performance preferences?
Max acceptable dimensions, etc.?
GM
Sorry but you have chosen to disregard or totally misinterpret what I said. The weakest link in the chain is that which ultimately degrades audio quality the most. I never said that a 'strong' link in a chain can overcome a weaker one - logically ridiculous! Perhaps the weekend will help! I will say it one more time to clarify:
For all practical purposes the speaker (or transduction) stage of the vast majority of 'sensible' audio systems is by a very long way the weakest link in the audio chain. No you can't clean up a sub-standard source with a great driver; its impossible. You can't clean up a crappy source with anything unless its just a balancing issue! What I said is that the output from any sensible amp does not suffer anything like the degradation that a speaker will introduce so its rarely an issue. That is assuming you are not doing something silly like overloading it, or using a valve amp with a high inductance speaker; but even here its a frequency imbalance, which is ultimately reversible. The kind of distortions that all speakers introduce are totally irreversible, i.e. you can't clean them up by any means, and they are orders of magnitude greater than those detectable in an amp output (even assuming the perfect speaker). You also can't clean up a distorted recording or a faulty CD player; you have no control over the former and you very probably won't get the latter; its your speakers that you need to change in 99.9% of cases! 40 years of design experience does help, but most sensible people can understand these basics!
Assuming it's a tube amp, then what is the amp's output impedance [not tap value]?
Room layout with planned speaker locations, etc.?
Personal/desired performance preferences?
Max acceptable dimensions, etc.?
GM
Dear GM, Thank you for your interest! I describe my questions better:
Solid State Amplifier, Class A single end, project JLH 2005, power 25/28 W 8ohm, double on 4ohm, but i want to work on 8ohm.
5x6m room with 5m loudspeakers.
From this implant I would like to have a more realistic sound possible (neutrality of sound and dynamics), but listening to low / medium volume (neighbors do not like ...), this is why it brings me closer to the full range mounted in the open Baffle, reading around seems to me that this is the busiest solution. I do not have the least experience with this kind of loudspeakers and that's why I let me ask for suggestions ... In this area then I seem to have realized that it is better to exclude the wizzard speakers because they tend to color and this is for me Intolerable, that's why tb w5 and AN 6.5 on paper seem to fit, even though they have never heard of it. I listen to many kinds of music from classical to pop through jazz and opera: almost everything.
I would like to thank everyone who will help me with this choice and greeting.
Mleod
Room layout with planned speaker locations, etc.?
Personal/desired performance preferences?
Max acceptable dimensions, etc.?
GM
Dear GM, Thank you for your interest! I describe my questions better:
Solid State Amplifier, Class A single end, project JLH 2005, power 25/28 W 8ohm, double on 4ohm, but i want to work on 8ohm.
5x6m room with 5m loudspeakers.
From this implant I would like to have a more realistic sound possible (neutrality of sound and dynamics), but listening to low / medium volume (neighbors do not like ...), this is why it brings me closer to the full range mounted in the open Baffle, reading around seems to me that this is the busiest solution. I do not have the least experience with this kind of loudspeakers and that's why I let me ask for suggestions ... In this area then I seem to have realized that it is better to exclude the wizzard speakers because they tend to color and this is for me Intolerable, that's why tb w5 and AN 6.5 on paper seem to fit, even though they have never heard of it. I listen to many kinds of music from classical to pop through jazz and opera: almost everything.
I would like to thank everyone who will help me with this choice and greeting.
Mleod
now, what you just said is completely different from what you initially said, and we agree with ONE exception. IMHO the amp is the weakest link in that chain. If you have a bad amp, then the best drivers in the world are only going to show the deficiencies in that chain before it... period. You are talking about good source and a sensible amp... you are changing the conditions of the original argument. That is referred to as moving the goalposts. Try to follow with me:
This is any audio chain (special equipment notwithstanding)... 1) source, 2) amplification, 3) driver - of course depending on equipment setup there my be patch cables involved as well, but that's an entirely different subject.
If #1 sucks, and #2 is good #3 will only highlight the shittieness of #1
If #1 is good and #2 sucks, then #3 will only highlight the shittieness of #2
If #1 is good and #2 is good then #3 will reproduce the chain if #3 is also good, if not, then it will still suck.
Therefore: The WEAKEST link in that chain is #1, followed by #2, lastly #3. There is no other possible conclusion unless your setup goes in reverse somehow and the drivers are the source and the source is the drivers, which of course is not possible. This is basic logic and common sense. If you start changing the rules of the argument, then it is no longer the original argument now is it?
I asked what the best driver is GIVEN my specific parameters and even gave an example of a driver that I considered good, HOWEVER, because of it's price point is outside of the range possible for me. In MY specific audio chain I will have a good source and a good amp, so those are irrelevant to the question. (and yes, I will have proper patch cables as well)
we will simply never agree. I am using the word "weakest" as per the definition in the dictionary. You seem to be using it as the word for "degradation" or "degraded" or some permutation thereof. What I highlighted above is where you are talking about something entirely different than what I am talking about.
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