Here is a thought I would like to hear comments on. Many years ago there was an article in Popular Science Magazine that said, if you soak wood in vinegar it will get soft. They had taken a moderately wide strip of veneer, soaked it in vinegar, and literally tied it into a knot; no breaking, no splitting, no splintering.
I'm wondering if the 'softeners' spoken of in this thread are an offshoot of that discovery.
Has anyone ever heard of this?
Steve/bluewizard
I'm wondering if the 'softeners' spoken of in this thread are an offshoot of that discovery.
Has anyone ever heard of this?
Steve/bluewizard
Similar effect but I doubt it was an offshoot of the vinegar. Veneer became popular as a woodworking technique in mid to late 1700th. First softeners were produced later on and consisted from a thinned out animal fats, similar to Hide glue but much less concentrated.
Later on, other methods and recipe were developed together with drying techniques.
Some formulas consist of yellow glue, water alcohol and glycerin, some have hide glue.
Vinegar is too acidic and will discolor or damage some veneers.
I think I will build closed box and have a driver inside, make front baffle replaceable and change the sample after measurements. So far, I’ve acquired powdered glass and silicon carbide.
Later on, other methods and recipe were developed together with drying techniques.
Some formulas consist of yellow glue, water alcohol and glycerin, some have hide glue.
Vinegar is too acidic and will discolor or damage some veneers.
I think I will build closed box and have a driver inside, make front baffle replaceable and change the sample after measurements. So far, I’ve acquired powdered glass and silicon carbide.
Although I use a prepackaged flatener, there is a better combination that vinegar could ever do. The author Mike Burton suggests:
1 part glycerin;
1 part denatured alcohol; and
16 parts water. Sounds good to me.
Roman, you mentioned "catalyzed adhesive" above. I'm not all that familiar with them. What brands are this?
And also, what would be wrong with using the old stand-by: hide glue?
1 part glycerin;
1 part denatured alcohol; and
16 parts water. Sounds good to me.
Roman, you mentioned "catalyzed adhesive" above. I'm not all that familiar with them. What brands are this?
And also, what would be wrong with using the old stand-by: hide glue?
Rigidity and the thickness of a glue line are 2 most important factors for the veneering.
Catalyzed adhesives such as Unibond 800 or varieties of Urea resigns gives you thinner and more ridged glue line thus minimizing a chance of the veneer movement. The drawback is that it has to stay in the press for a while or artificially heated to speed up curing. They are industry standards because if you do a correct application, there’s no way in hell anything is going to move or lift and while you doing an expensive commissioned piece, you certainly don’t want to hear anything later on from the pissed off customer.
There’s nothing wrong about hide glue. It’s just not as good as newer adhesives, not as strong. Hide glue aren’t the best to press large panels, simply because it will get too cold while you are trying to press it. You could iron it out later. If done correctly (takes quite some experience) its better solution then a contact cement. Look at the last 200 years of furniture manufacturing.
Catalyzed adhesives such as Unibond 800 or varieties of Urea resigns gives you thinner and more ridged glue line thus minimizing a chance of the veneer movement. The drawback is that it has to stay in the press for a while or artificially heated to speed up curing. They are industry standards because if you do a correct application, there’s no way in hell anything is going to move or lift and while you doing an expensive commissioned piece, you certainly don’t want to hear anything later on from the pissed off customer.
There’s nothing wrong about hide glue. It’s just not as good as newer adhesives, not as strong. Hide glue aren’t the best to press large panels, simply because it will get too cold while you are trying to press it. You could iron it out later. If done correctly (takes quite some experience) its better solution then a contact cement. Look at the last 200 years of furniture manufacturing.
Roman, what would Really be nice would be for you to start a thread, in which you discuss veneering techniques, and also provide pictures of some of the things you do. Since you are obviously the best at this here, it would be most informative for the rest of us to learn from you on some of the things that are within the 'trade' and could be applied here.
It would be nice to read about what you recommend for tools, techniques, adhesives, etc. And keep in mind that none of us(I'm assuming this) own a veneer press, but some of us would be interested.
You have a wealth of knowledge that could greatly help us here, since finishing the cabinets are an art/skill that are also very important to successful speaker building.
If you do start one, probably the Single Driver Section would be best, because the general "loudspeaker" section gets so much more 'at the moment' passing threads and a thread about veneering would get removed from the front page too quickly. Just a suggestion here.
I really wish you would start a Veneer Techniques thread. Pretty Please?
It would be nice to read about what you recommend for tools, techniques, adhesives, etc. And keep in mind that none of us(I'm assuming this) own a veneer press, but some of us would be interested.
You have a wealth of knowledge that could greatly help us here, since finishing the cabinets are an art/skill that are also very important to successful speaker building.
If you do start one, probably the Single Driver Section would be best, because the general "loudspeaker" section gets so much more 'at the moment' passing threads and a thread about veneering would get removed from the front page too quickly. Just a suggestion here.
I really wish you would start a Veneer Techniques thread. Pretty Please?
It’s hard to cover all the techniques and questions in one thread. If moderators can create permanent thread, I could add articles as I have time and have a more or less complete review. Meanwhile, here is a forum I can recommend.
http://www.woodweb.com/
you could check out veneering section to see what kind of problems people run into.
http://www.woodweb.com/
you could check out veneering section to see what kind of problems people run into.
R-Carpenter said:
Here is the problem with that. To make it permanent, the thread must be valuable enough to warrant it. This means that the participants must be willing to make it successful first.
I am more than willing to participate on a regular basis, and there are others who would as well. But making numerous threads is not the way to go here. One thread is best to use as a reference.
Also, there is a thread already which allows members to list favorite threads, which a veneering thread could be accessed quickly, even if the thread was not made permanent.
If a dedicated veneering thread is too narrow, there is also the possibility of using Construction Techniques as a general topic. But veneering is something that is akin to Black Magic within the speaker building community. The very thought of bookmatching is Voodoo to most. And to them applying contact cement is the adhesive of choice, and they don't even know why it is the worst possible one of the techniques out there.
I am recommending that you start this because you are far more skilled at this than I am. And unlike the forum you recommend, which I am going through, this would be speaker specific. Anyway, that's all I can say about this. You and I are in the same related business, and I would love to pick your brain on some things, which could help me in the future.
despotic931 said:
Obviously it was laminated with numerous thin sheets of plywood and glued together, all mounted on a flat frame, using pegs where the bends were to be made. If you lay out a flat base, and draw a cross section of what you wish to make, you can drill holes at strategic points and make pegs/dowels all along the curves to act as strong points.
As you glue each thin sheet, you continue to wrap them around the contoured shape that is kept in place by those pegs. Once the sheets are glued up, then they all are clamped tightly and allowed to dry. When the lamination dries, the pegs are removed and the shape will be permanently set.
There may be some variations to this, but that is how you make contoured, laminated shapes, without having to go to the kerfed plywood, which can also be used, but not as well IMO.
I wouldn’t know how exactly they did it without having a closer look at the piece itself. Nevertheless, there are few different ways you could do it.
Certainty it’s a pain in the behind.
Let’s break the job in parts.
1 to 1 Template needed to lay out the parts and figure out joint angles. (side view if you will)
As you notice, there are straight parts and radiuses involved. Straight parts wouldn’t present any problems except joint angles and orientation. Curved parts are more of the pain. You could make lamination jig and vacuum it (if you have it) or you could make a jig for the router and make enough of the exact same parts for each profile to build up to the width.
The amusing part is to join all this insanity in to one coherent piece.
If I had to veneer it, I’d work each part separately, taken my time and build jigs for vacuuming. Original maker could contact cement all the parts or use heat sensitive glue. Edges were probably veneered last to cover the joints.
I suspect that there’s made in 4 parts and joints are blind splines.
This job would take me about a week and a half to do it my way but I would be able to produce same exact pieces relatively quickly after.
Certainty it’s a pain in the behind.
Let’s break the job in parts.
1 to 1 Template needed to lay out the parts and figure out joint angles. (side view if you will)
As you notice, there are straight parts and radiuses involved. Straight parts wouldn’t present any problems except joint angles and orientation. Curved parts are more of the pain. You could make lamination jig and vacuum it (if you have it) or you could make a jig for the router and make enough of the exact same parts for each profile to build up to the width.
The amusing part is to join all this insanity in to one coherent piece.
If I had to veneer it, I’d work each part separately, taken my time and build jigs for vacuuming. Original maker could contact cement all the parts or use heat sensitive glue. Edges were probably veneered last to cover the joints.
I suspect that there’s made in 4 parts and joints are blind splines.
This job would take me about a week and a half to do it my way but I would be able to produce same exact pieces relatively quickly after.
MJL21193 said:
“Using Contact Cement correctly” is the key issue. Contact adhesives were developed for the plastic laminates were internal movement is not present. Formica is stable, no joints, shlap it on mdf, DONE. Cost efficient way to make commercial cabinets presentable and much more resistant to the everyday abuse.
John, you like paperbacked even grained veneer and that’s fine. All though yellow glue will give you a stronger bond then CC you use it anyway because you don’t want to deal with pressing the veneer or making jigs or using vacuum. With paper backed veneer it works (until p-d off customer calls you and complains about bubbles). It’s funny that this conversation is taking place now because last week I had a salesman from lumber company asking me to consult him on the problem. He recommended and sold Elm burl on paper to one of the shops and now the veneer is cracking on the top of the dining room table at the customers house.
Anyway, raw veneer gives you more options for the layout and the ability to joint it and glue it gives you much more design options. CC is ok for some but very limited to bonding strength and not suitable for raw veneer.
R-Carpenter said:
Contact cement is easier to use correctly than other methods, and this being a DIY site, I think that's important.
I know it's not the best option, but it's certainly not the worst one.
The solvent based CC doesn't saturate the veneer, making it swell. CC is not going to come through the grain or seems and ruin the stain ability of the job. When done properly, you end up with a much smoother result than the iron on alternative.
MJL21193 said:
John, I say so, not meaning any offense. I have worked with CC and plastic laminate, while in commercial construction management, in the 70s. Contact cememt works nicely with P/L because P/L is rigid and takes well to CC.
But with veneer, that is another ball game. Granted, CC is 'adequate', but it is not as good as the other means. Veneers tend to move around, which P/L does not. And it will always try to curl or ripple if it is not adhered well, because of moisture and heat. Oh, you can make it look beaurtiful today, and it may be the same thing next year, but in a few years, it will tend to come undone, even if you 'do it right'.
I always cut my CC down with acetone(one part acetone, two parts CC) and apply three coats, which is the best application. And it still doesn't last, time wise.
Now, in this hoby, people are always going for the ultimate enclosure and the perfect one is just over the horizon, so they are continually moving on to other projects. But keeping a speaker enclosure for years and not have it start to peel on you, after using CC is a rarity.
Again, there are better adhesives out there. Sorry John, but you and I will just have to agree to disagree here. Enjoy your veneer and contact cement.
John L said:
John, I say so, not meaning any offense.
But with veneer, that is another ball game. Granted, CC is 'adequate', but it is not as good as the other means.
I always cut my CC down with acetone(one part acetone, two parts CC) and apply three coats, which is the best application. And it still doesn't last, time wise.
Again, there are better adhesives out there. Sorry John, but you and I will just have to agree to disagree here. Enjoy your veneer and contact cement.
You have certainly picked up a lot of knowledge over the past month. You've gone from priming your veneer with shellac to being the foremost expert on gluing veneer. Incredible.
Reducing CC with (of all things) acetone RUINS the glue. It's no wonder you have such a negative attitude toward it. Proper use will give good results.
Have fun with your shellac.
MJL21193 said:
First off John, I use shellac as a sealer first, because it makes an excellent one. I've used shellac for years, and know of it's wonderful qualities. This is not something new to me.
As for being the foremost expert on gluing veneer, I never claimed to be that. But I have also used contact cement professionally in the commercial construction business, ie hospital nurse's stations, and complex equipment housing where plastic laminate is used extensively. I know a Huge amount about contact cement.
And don't get me wrong, I Love CC. It's easy to apply, and you are quickly done with it. In my experience it works so well with P/L that I would not consider anything else. But it is not the best adhesive for wood veneering. I'm just stating a fact here.
How do you come up with that John? Ive used CC straight AND cut down, for years, AND within the construction industry. Cutting it's thickness down with acetone actually makes the prepared surface better than using CC straight, which is too thick and tends to 'goop' in places. When you cut it down, it becomes thinner and can be applied with a finer coat, which will dry quicker. That is the purpose of the acetone, to quickly evaporate. Three coats of that beats any two coats of CC, or one thick coat.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how it will destroy or weaken the CC. You'be got me there.
And yes, I will continue to enjoy my shellac. It's a great substance to have around, and serves more than one purpose. But I like lacquer too, and will not hesitate to use a poly for a surface that is going to take wear and tear. I guess I'm just a traditionalist when it comes to shellac.
R-Carpenter said:
Yes, I'm a member of that club.
As far as I'm concerned, there was no argument. You don't want to hear a different point of view, that's fine, don't read my posts.
When I see information that's wrong, I try to save someone (less experienced) some time (if they will listen).
Now excuse me, I need to kneel and pray at my contact cement alter.
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