You did a standard front loaded horn, where the driver starts at the beginning of the flare. I did an 'offset driver' horn, where the driver enters along the path somewhere. Yes your caveman drawing represents the flares that I was referring to. In an offset driver horn the first flare defines the distance from the start of the horn to the center of the driver.
There is more than one way sometimes to sim a cabinet, some better than others -- as oliver alluded to. Hornresp assumes a flat piston driver, not a cone, and as such, olivers suggestion on how to define the compression (small opening driver fires through) would be correct.
A better way may be to do offset driver, use black as is for first, do the first short blue line as the 2nd path, then the vertical blue and yellow as the 3rd, then brown for 4th.
glad to see your taking to hornresp -- it's a great tool.
There is more than one way sometimes to sim a cabinet, some better than others -- as oliver alluded to. Hornresp assumes a flat piston driver, not a cone, and as such, olivers suggestion on how to define the compression (small opening driver fires through) would be correct.
A better way may be to do offset driver, use black as is for first, do the first short blue line as the 2nd path, then the vertical blue and yellow as the 3rd, then brown for 4th.
glad to see your taking to hornresp -- it's a great tool.
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Post #20
Hi Tidy Max,
You may already have noticed, when you hover the mouse pointer over a variable name or data field you see a short description at the bottom of the Hornresp window. Also, when you double-click on a name the name changes, e.g.: Ap - AP1 - Fr. When double clicking on a data entry field you find calculators or entry points for additional data.
It's very worthwhile to read through the Help file, and to just play with different cabinet styles.
Regards,
P.S.: What are your box dimensions?
Hi Tidy Max,
You may already have noticed, when you hover the mouse pointer over a variable name or data field you see a short description at the bottom of the Hornresp window. Also, when you double-click on a name the name changes, e.g.: Ap - AP1 - Fr. When double clicking on a data entry field you find calculators or entry points for additional data.
It's very worthwhile to read through the Help file, and to just play with different cabinet styles.
Regards,
P.S.: What are your box dimensions?
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Brilliant, i have used the calculators for each box, however i didnt realise you could change the name(function?!) of each box! So i shall check that out in the morning, i don't have the dimensions with me right now as im at home and the box is at work! Do you just want the basic dimensions e.g. height, length and width? i think its 48inchs high but thats all i can remember!
The box its self sounds pretty good
however with the use of this program im hoping to make the next one alot better, due to a lack of funds there will be no trips to the pub this weekend and the girlfriend is busy so ill probably make the Thunderbolt Marque 2 on Friday night/Saturday day.
Can Hornsrep be used to find a more suitable driver, as mentioned earlier the Eminence is a pretty entry level driver i think, i may use a higher rated Celestion next (or maybe even borrow a nice EV out of one of the other bass bins at work hehe
The box its self sounds pretty good
however with the use of this program im hoping to make the next one alot better, due to a lack of funds there will be no trips to the pub this weekend and the girlfriend is busy so ill probably make the Thunderbolt Marque 2 on Friday night/Saturday day.Can Hornsrep be used to find a more suitable driver, as mentioned earlier the Eminence is a pretty entry level driver i think, i may use a higher rated Celestion next (or maybe even borrow a nice EV out of one of the other bass bins at work hehe
yea oliver, those are the dimensions that I used to do my 'guesstimates' I printed off the drawing, and then using an architect scale, approximated the dimensions. (meaning this is still FAR from accurate....)
I played around with this a little bit more, and I think this is getting closer to the actual cabinet. The one thing I did is reduce the rear chamber size down to 40liters. Reducing the rear chamber size really smoothed out the bottom end. You can add solid styrofoam blocks to reduce the chamber size, works great.
If you steeply high pass at 40hz, you can almost put 100watts into the kappa 15a and stay within it's 4.0mm xmax. That's pretty impressive for this driver. A 3015lf gives almost identical response, but allows up to 500watts input.
I have to say... I'm pretty impressed with this 1975 horn. With a multicell on top crossed at 500hz, I believe it really is all it claimed to be... full range from 40-15000. While I think 108db is stretching it a bit, 105 is very doable with this cabinet.
I played around with this a little bit more, and I think this is getting closer to the actual cabinet. The one thing I did is reduce the rear chamber size down to 40liters. Reducing the rear chamber size really smoothed out the bottom end. You can add solid styrofoam blocks to reduce the chamber size, works great.
If you steeply high pass at 40hz, you can almost put 100watts into the kappa 15a and stay within it's 4.0mm xmax. That's pretty impressive for this driver. A 3015lf gives almost identical response, but allows up to 500watts input.
I have to say... I'm pretty impressed with this 1975 horn. With a multicell on top crossed at 500hz, I believe it really is all it claimed to be... full range from 40-15000. While I think 108db is stretching it a bit, 105 is very doable with this cabinet.
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There is an actual mid unit built in this style, i realise the the original Thunderbolt was designed to be a full range box but in practise ive been told it actually lacked 'mid', my bosses created a similar unit but i believe it had 2 drivers in and was solely for mid. I shall ask them when they get in to work! Im about to measure up the rest of the horn conical flare and enter the information. it would be alot easier to do this prior to screwing the sides on the enclosure haha
Im struggling to calculate the volume of each horn segment, am i right in trying to calculate it like A=1/2(bh) x width of the box?
Im using the figures that you created Jbell for my S1-S5, although i would rather calculate my own they will do for now when i press calculate i am ask if i want to mask the throat chamber and rear chamber resonances?... Do i?
Also, how are you all getting print screens of just the hornsrep parameter window and posting it as an attatchment, it seems very rudimentary for me to keep prnt scrning, copying it to paint, uploading to photobucket bla bla.
Im struggling to calculate the volume of each horn segment, am i right in trying to calculate it like A=1/2(bh) x width of the box?
Im using the figures that you created Jbell for my S1-S5, although i would rather calculate my own they will do for now
when i press calculate i am ask if i want to mask the throat chamber and rear chamber resonances?... Do i?Also, how are you all getting print screens of just the hornsrep parameter window and posting it as an attatchment, it seems very rudimentary for me to keep prnt scrning, copying it to paint, uploading to photobucket bla bla.
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Also, when measing the CON measurements, where in the flare do i measure to/from, do i measure the longest point of each triangle, or do i measure from the middle of the triangle.... cue caveman illustration....
Woo managed to attach it! So which colour is the measurement that i should take?
Sorry about all the questions, i have a million things running through my head to do with this program.
Also, just picked up my next lot of wood! Im building the Marque 2 out of MDF, going to try and start it tonight
Woo managed to attach it! So which colour is the measurement that i should take?
Sorry about all the questions, i have a million things running through my head to do with this program.
Also, just picked up my next lot of wood! Im building the Marque 2 out of MDF, going to try and start it tonight
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maybe this helps?
To measure lengths, using the 'centerline' method is probably the easiest. However as I said, figuring out the 'best' way of defining the flares into the 4 flares that hornresp gives you is a challenge some times.
(btw, you can upload pics directly to the board and avoid the photobucket step if you want to.)
To measure lengths, using the 'centerline' method is probably the easiest. However as I said, figuring out the 'best' way of defining the flares into the 4 flares that hornresp gives you is a challenge some times.
(btw, you can upload pics directly to the board and avoid the photobucket step if you want to.)
Attachments
Sorry about the lack of replies over the past 2 days, left my laptop charger at our workshop and ive been onsite so not had chance to get it!
Il do some research into the phase corrective throat TB, i have a feeling it may be 2 baffles (not sure if thats teh correct terminology) that i actually missed out of the marque 1 haha) they are two angled pieces of wood that go into the 1st flare from the beginning of the horn to the start of the second flare that create a V shape.
An illustration would help, ill put on one later, just going to try and do some measuring out for the next box so i can enter the data into Hornresp later
Il do some research into the phase corrective throat TB, i have a feeling it may be 2 baffles (not sure if thats teh correct terminology) that i actually missed out of the marque 1 haha) they are two angled pieces of wood that go into the 1st flare from the beginning of the horn to the start of the second flare that create a V shape.
An illustration would help, ill put on one later, just going to try and do some measuring out for the next box so i can enter the data into Hornresp later
Hi TB, again just a very quick reply, not had chance to do anything with the box yet just been too busy, ill put my Hornresp data up but i don't know how accurate to the box it will be.
Problems with the box are that at certain frequencies it has a very high SPL, yet at a 10Hz difference it sounds pretty dead, also the box seems to have one tone?
After speaking to a guy who i know has built a few of these boxes he found that the bigger the aperture for the driver (does this hole actually have a specific name, i just keep calling it the driver aperture), anyway, i digress, the bigger the aperture the higher the box went without affecting low end? But i also assume that this means the internal pressure of the box would also drop?
Unfortunately i don't know enough about speakers to understand what any of that means haha. Here is my Hornresp report so far, i didnt note what i was getting SPL peaks and troughs at but 50hz was definitely the loudest frequency, 60hz was very quiet, 82?Hz was loud again, followed by a quiet patch up to 90something which was loud again.
Im hoping to use that information to find when i have entered the data in hornresp properly.
How are you all attatching thumbnails of the Hornresp screen by the way?
Problems with the box are that at certain frequencies it has a very high SPL, yet at a 10Hz difference it sounds pretty dead, also the box seems to have one tone?
After speaking to a guy who i know has built a few of these boxes he found that the bigger the aperture for the driver (does this hole actually have a specific name, i just keep calling it the driver aperture), anyway, i digress, the bigger the aperture the higher the box went without affecting low end? But i also assume that this means the internal pressure of the box would also drop?
Unfortunately i don't know enough about speakers to understand what any of that means haha. Here is my Hornresp report so far, i didnt note what i was getting SPL peaks and troughs at but 50hz was definitely the loudest frequency, 60hz was very quiet, 82?Hz was loud again, followed by a quiet patch up to 90something which was loud again.
Im hoping to use that information to find when i have entered the data in hornresp properly.
How are you all attatching thumbnails of the Hornresp screen by the way?
Hi Tidy Max,
My Hornresp simulations do not show a peak @ 50hz, but there are a number of peaks and valleys starting @ about 60Hz. I assume you have tried to look for all the ususal suspects: air leaks in the horn path, rear chamber, driver mounting, room modes? Ideally you should measure outside, but that may be a tad cold right now, anyway measure the relative response right at the mouth, and don't rely only on what you can hear.
The reason I asked for the throat geometry before is that it makes a difference in the model. If the horn throat starts as shown in the drawing you have an offset horn with the driver entering @ S2. If the horn starts with two slanted boards right next to the throat chamber opening (aperture sounds fine to me), and a sideways board also at the opening, you could model it as a offset horn with a very short L12 (distance from sideways board to middle of horn chamber opening), with the cross-section @ the sidways board being S1 and @ the middle of the chamber opening being S2. Or, you model in Nd as a front loaded horn (FLH) using the opening as S1 and the cross-section of the horn right after the throat (opening/aperture) as S2. S3/S4/S5 all stay the same.
If you model it both ways, you'll see the difference.
To attach a picture: In the "Reply to Thread" window click on "Manage Attachments" (it's under "Additional Options"). This pops up another window where you can "Browse" and then "Upload".
Hope this helps,
Regards,
My Hornresp simulations do not show a peak @ 50hz, but there are a number of peaks and valleys starting @ about 60Hz. I assume you have tried to look for all the ususal suspects: air leaks in the horn path, rear chamber, driver mounting, room modes? Ideally you should measure outside, but that may be a tad cold right now, anyway measure the relative response right at the mouth, and don't rely only on what you can hear.
The reason I asked for the throat geometry before is that it makes a difference in the model. If the horn throat starts as shown in the drawing you have an offset horn with the driver entering @ S2. If the horn starts with two slanted boards right next to the throat chamber opening (aperture sounds fine to me), and a sideways board also at the opening, you could model it as a offset horn with a very short L12 (distance from sideways board to middle of horn chamber opening), with the cross-section @ the sidways board being S1 and @ the middle of the chamber opening being S2. Or, you model in Nd as a front loaded horn (FLH) using the opening as S1 and the cross-section of the horn right after the throat (opening/aperture) as S2. S3/S4/S5 all stay the same.
If you model it both ways, you'll see the difference.
To attach a picture: In the "Reply to Thread" window click on "Manage Attachments" (it's under "Additional Options"). This pops up another window where you can "Browse" and then "Upload".
Hope this helps,
Regards,
back toward the beginning of this thread, when I first posted a guesstimate hornresp of this cabinet, you saw a huge one note peak. (which sounds like what you are seeing)
One of the things I have done in hornresp to tame that peak and level out the response is to reduce the size of the rear chamber.
Just add solid blocks of rigid foam to bring down the rear chamber 'air' volume to about 40 liters.
One of the things I have done in hornresp to tame that peak and level out the response is to reduce the size of the rear chamber.
Just add solid blocks of rigid foam to bring down the rear chamber 'air' volume to about 40 liters.
Hi Tb, just been crazy busy recently, working days, nights, then sometimes days and nights haha.
just over half way through building the next box, one the next few panels are in i will be entering all of the details into hornresp and ill put a report up right away.
Sorry if the thread went dead for abit, i have too many hobbies and not enough time
just over half way through building the next box, one the next few panels are in i will be entering all of the details into hornresp and ill put a report up right away.
Sorry if the thread went dead for abit, i have too many hobbies and not enough time
To address you original question, I am staunchly in favour of electronic crossovers for a lot of absolutely compelling reasons. Anyway, the conclusion to the story is a very cheap Behringer crossover and three channels of second-hand amplification is the way to go.
BTW, if you have a gander at my signature, you'll see my next suggestion: build just one horn and cross over 90-150 Hz. Piece of cake to have quality sound north of the crossover point using any number of small quality drivers (possibly with a tweeter system too). There are some reasons to have more than one woofer, but there are much more beneficial things ahead on the priority list.
Footnote: you know what folks with horns like yours or mine add... they add subs for the range below. Horns are great but they don't go low.
Footnote 2: somebody is sure to tell you you gotta cross over to a mixed bass below 90 Hz or lose some stereo benefit. Don't believe it.
BTW, if you have a gander at my signature, you'll see my next suggestion: build just one horn and cross over 90-150 Hz. Piece of cake to have quality sound north of the crossover point using any number of small quality drivers (possibly with a tweeter system too). There are some reasons to have more than one woofer, but there are much more beneficial things ahead on the priority list.
Footnote: you know what folks with horns like yours or mine add... they add subs for the range below. Horns are great but they don't go low.
Footnote 2: somebody is sure to tell you you gotta cross over to a mixed bass below 90 Hz or lose some stereo benefit. Don't believe it.
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