bass guitar frequency range

[Geenius]

...and another bass player reporting on duty,Sir!
I don't want to rain on your parade,but your project is highly probable not to give you the desired results...here's why:
1.A three-way bass cab is a little too much either for bass guitar or double-bass.The existence of a 18'' woofer might ensure a psihical confort but IMHO it's way too big and slow...except if you want that "Acoustic horns" sound of the 70's.For almost every situation,a 15''+2x10'' or a good 2x12'' is OK.
2.I'd not expect "wood & strings" from a 3-way box because you'll need to use some passive filters for the mid and tweeter,wich means different phase responses between the three drivers...hence,more "mud".(...been there,done that....too many times).
3.Are sure you want a heavy,60+ kilos cabinet to haul around?Just think about your back....now maybe you can and are willing to perform such a sport,but look a little farther....when you'll be 50,you'll surely feel all the consequences,being good or bad.
If I were you,I'd go for a good pair of coaxial 12s (as someone already suggested here).In a well-built/proper cab,they perform wonderfully,especially with a double-bass.
...or,go buy a Roland Bass Cube 100 or one of those fancy AER amps!
HTH!
Regards,

Hi Le Basseur,

Thanks for the input but I must disagree.

1). I have played on many 12" and 15" systems and the physical presence of a double bass just doesn't come across on "small" woofers. That's why I want to try an 18", at home for my hifi system I use two 21" woofers and they give the sound I am looking for, unfortunatly 21"-ers are less portable than 18". The 18" driver I have in mind has an acceleration factor of 178, comparable with many normal 15" woofers.

2). I am looking for a natural tonal balance, i.e. a flat frequency response. There are two ways to achieve this. Either using a single driver which has to be equalized or via a hifi approach using multiple drivers and a passive crossover. Both add extra phase shifts. My current system uses one 12" woofer, two 7" midranges and a 1" tweeter connected together with a 2.5-way passive crossover. I am often complimented about the good sound quality.

3). All the drivers have a neodynium magnet, even the 18" woofer weighs only 6,6 Kg.

I've tried a Roland Bass Cube 100 and it sounded like ......(fill in your favourite four letter word).
I also have a simple light weight combo with a single 12" woofer, fine for mild amplification but it also sounds like the Roland.

 

[Zeleuo]

Hey Tony,

Have you considered the recent Carvin BRX 1x18Ó? Although youÕre only wanting to go to 40hz sheÕs tuned for 24hz so youÕd have MORE than enough room for proper attenuation,& youÕd be LOADED for Bear should you change your mind,or taste latter on.

Better to have it than not.

I donÕt relate to the Double Bass thing,but then again I donÕt Hunt with a Muzzleloader,wipe my Tail with a Corncob,or take my Deceased pets to the Taxidermist either.

However you are ABSOLUTELY correct in regards to FULL Bass transmission,in relation to Driver size.ThatÕs why so many Bassists are pleasantly surprised at the true FULLNESS,(that theyÕve never heard before) of the humble Gstring once they play through one of the 12Ó Aguilar CabÕs,(1x,2x,or 4x) for the first time.

The same holds true for the Larger strings.What the 12Ó does for the G,a 18Ó does for E.

4x10Õs are popular because Fender made them popular eons ago,& 15Õs are so popular because 10Õs are SO lacking.For some reason a LOT of people choose to live in the past,in spite of clear advancement.

The reality is 10Õs simply donÕt cut it!

So Buy,or Build your 18Ós.Run some SERIOUS wattage through em,Rearrange the Drummers Kit while he attempts to play it,Shake that SNOT Nosed Guitarist,(and his rig) clean off the stage,& unbolt ALL the seats in the first five rows.

Ignore the Micro Minded.YouÕre a Bassist,not a Tenor so play Bass Tones!!!

 

[Geenius]

Update: I have bought a Ciare 18.00Ndw , a Ciare 10.50Ndw and a Monacor MHD-172 tweeter and mounted them in a closed test box. Last Sunday I had a gig with my new 5 string bass-guitar. I still have to design a crossover and the tweeter was connected by a simple 3rd oder crossover set to a high 5kHz but the result with fresh out of the box drivers is quite promising. Deep solid powerfull bass even being a closed design and nice attack and articulation in the mid-band. Now its time to start on a real crossover and maybe some reflex ports to bring out the low B a little better.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[Brion55]

Have you thought of going with an active crossover feeding two power amps?

 

[Geenius]

Yep, too expensive.

 

[phase_accurate]

Yep, too expensive.

Maybe - but waaaaaaaay too cool to dismiss !!

Regards

Charles

 

[Geenius]

All donations would be highly appreciated!

 

[Brion55]

It's not as expensive as you might think and the results are well worth it.

You can build a nice 18db/octave crossover for less than $30. and run it into a stereo amp, using one side for the highs and the other for the lows. Stereo sound reinforcement amps aren't all that expensive these days. The "high" end could then have a passive crossover to run the tweeter.

Just a thought...

 

[elementx]

This is for standard guitar, the standard tunings...the picture might help too...

FREQ PIANO STRING/FRET
164.81 E3 6-0
174.61 F3 6-1
185.00 F#3 6-2
196.00 G3 6-3
207.65 G#3 6-4
220.00 A3 5-0
233.08 A#3 5-1
245.94 B3 5-2
261.63 C4 5-3
277.18 C#4 5-4
293.66 D4 4-0
311.13 D#4 4-1
329.63 E4 4-2
349.23 F4 4-3
369.99 F#4 4-4
392.00 G4 3-0
415.30 G#4 3-1
440.00 A4 3-2
466.16 A#4 3-3
493.88 B4 2-0
523.25 C5 2-1
554.37 C#5 2-2
587.33 D5 2-3
622.25 D#5 2-4
659.26 E5 1-0
698.46 F5 1-1
739.99 F#5 1-2
784.00 G5 1-3
830.61 G#5 1-4
880.00 A5 1-5
932.33 A#5 1-6
987.77 B5 1-7
1046.50 C6 1-8
1108.70 C#6 1-9
1174.70 D6 1-10
1244.50 D#6 1-11
1318.50 E6 1-12
1396.60 F6 1-13
1480.00 F#6 1-14
1568.00 G6 1-15
1661.20 G#6 1-16
1760.00 A6 1-17
1867.70 A#6 1-18
1975.50 B6 1-19
2093.00 C7 1-20
2217.50 C#7 1-21
2349.30 D7 1-22
2489.00 D#7 1-23
2637.00 E7 1-24

 

[hyperpsyched]

and I quote...

"The AVERAGE human ear perceives frequencies from 20 to 20,000hz.

Audiophiles hear even more.One right here."

- Zuleuo

OMG Zeleuo... that is the funniest thing I have ever read.

I had no idea most audiophiles were DOGS!

Why then must audiophiles be dogs? Simple logic really:

IF dogs can hear frequencies above 20 KHz,
AND all audiophiles, regardless of age, can hear frequencies above 20 KHz,
THEN all audiophiles are dogs.

Voila!

So to improve my hearing I can simply buy a 3000 Euro power cable. Hah, I too will acquire this elusive super-hearing and thus join this exclusive club of audiophile... uh, well... super-hearers!

It gets better! It is also a well known fact that audiophiles have much greater sexual stamina and are generally able to jump over tall buildings in a single bound, even if they tend to lack an understanding of the fundamental basics of both biology and physics. But then who cares when you have a Shakti "The Stone" on every audio component in your home! Me, I have to resort to common kitty litter on my equipment.

Really... just teasing! But please, post more more of the same

As for the whole Bass guitar frequency range thing... no idea.

 

[Brett]

And all of that has exactly what to do with bass guitar amplification?

 

[hyperpsyched]

Well Brett, it has sweet FA to do with bass amplification. But since the incredibly pretentious and mind-bogglingly condescending original post also had nothing to do with the bass instrument...

Simply exercising my right to refute a lemma that claims there is a correlation between the amount of money you spend on stereo equipment and the auditory frequency range you are capable of detecting. This is also true of the amount of money you spend on your bass guitar. Spending more on an instrument will not allow you to hear lower frequencies than you can hear right now.

 

[phase_accurate]

Did anyone claim that a bass gets lower the more expensive it was ?

But there is definitely a correlation between the frequency range reproduced by a speaker system and the effort put into it. There is a physical relationship that can't be denied and this is telling us that for a given size the efficiency of your speaker is proportional to the cutoff-frequency^3.
That's the reason why those 4x10" speakers are quite poular: They offer quite a lot of SPL for a given box-size and weight combined with good upper-end extension. This is at the cost of low-end extension. There are not many instrument-speakers around that can properly reproduce the low E of an ordinary bass, let alone the B of a low-tuned five-string bass. If you want to properly reproduce these as well then you'll nedd to move quite some air which means larger boxes, larger drivers and more power. And this will definitely not come for free.
Furthermore if you want a modern bass sound you'll have to have suitable high-end extension as well. And this wouldn't come for free either.

Regards

Charles

 

[Brett]

Well Brett, it has sweet FA to do with bass amplification. But since the incredibly pretentious and mind-bogglingly condescending original post also had nothing to do with the bass instrument...

Simply exercising my right to refute a lemma that claims there is a correlation between the amount of money you spend on stereo equipment and the auditory frequency range you are capable of detecting. This is also true of the amount of money you spend on your bass guitar. Spending more on an instrument will not allow you to hear lower frequencies than you can hear right now.

No issue with the cost of gear vs hearing ability argument as I agree.

The LF response of a BG is determined in great part by the scale length (and consequent tuning) as this directly affects the fundamental and 2H response and therefore measured and perceived strength of the lowest notes. Construction, eg rigidity and the pickups and electronics also have a major influence. I have a lot of BG's, from boutiques from boutiques to cheapies, and lots in between (tending towards the lower end of the cost spectrum and secondhand).

Cheers

 

[FastEddy]

This is great! This is exactly what I wanted to find out about: bass guitar amplification range.

I am building a healthy solid state power amp for bass ... and what I'm getting is that the freq response of the amp should be from ~15 Htz through at least 15K Htz., with ~10 Htz through 20K being preferable. (The amp will actually pass 10 to 25k without too much degradation = +/- 1 db through this range).

The question now becomes the pre-amp. I had intended to build a tube pre-amp and a power MOSFET power amp = a hybred combination ... with switched filters for changes to the upper end output.

Comments? ... heckles?

 

[Brett]

This is great! This is exactly what I wanted to find out about: bass guitar amplification range.

I am building a healthy solid state power amp for bass ... and what I'm getting is that the freq response of the amp should be from ~15 Htz through at least 15K Htz., with ~10 Htz through 20K being preferable. (The amp will actually pass 10 to 25k without too much degradation = +/- 1 db through this range).

The question now becomes the pre-amp. I had intended to build a tube pre-amp and a power MOSFET power amp = a hybred combination ... with switched filters for changes to the upper end output.

Comments? ... heckles?

Not many basses tune below B (30Hz). Even your typical 34" scale bass doesn't have as strong a fundamental level below about open A with the 2H dominating. Changes a bit above there though. At the top end, there's really not a lot above 8k, certainly wouldn't be heard in the mix.

SS power and tube pre is a very good idea IMO as it gets you most of both worlds. As you're building your own poweramp, perhaps incorporate some variable frequency selective adjustable feedback a la the Peavey 400 tube head, and I think you'll have a rig that many would be able to tell had some SS in it.

Being devil's advocate, if you haven't started in the SS power yet, buy a pro amp as they're cheap, or build around UCD or 41Hz Amp modules.

There was some interest on Talkbass a couple of weeks back regarding a tube pre design for the few DIY types there. Nothing's come of it yet, but I have been sketching ideas. So far, I'd like to keep it simple with a toploogy like
Input - gain - passive tone stack - gain - VC - balanced out probably with a seperate DI and bright, deep etc switches and some HF and LF type tone controls to roll off each end as required. Should give plenty of tonal variation in 3 stages. If I need any more, I'd add an FX loop in later.

I don't intend using 12A_7 series tubes and want to incorporate some design details that I don't see in MI gear, but are standard in good 'phile stuff like quiet power supplies.

 

[brsanko]

I hope this is relvent. I'm building a recording studio in my basement and am currently looking at designs for a bass cab. I don't need it to be terribly loud as I will just be recording with it. The thing that puzzles me is that most drivers made for basses only go down to 50Hz or so. Seems to me it would be imparitive in this aplication to extend at lest to 30Hz. Can someone tell me wher to find a driver that will do this? preferably a 12".

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I hope this is relvent. I'm building a recording studio in my basement and am currently looking at designs for a bass cab. I don't need it to be terribly loud as I will just be recording with it. The thing that puzzles me is that most drivers made for basses only go down to 50Hz or so. Seems to me it would be imparitive in this aplication to extend at lest to 30Hz. Can someone tell me wher to find a driver that will do this? preferably a 12".

You probably won't find one, and don't need one anyway, as you have already found, bass cabs don't usually go that low (or need to) - and recording of bass guitar is almost always done by DI, so the cab doesn't matter.

If you're wanting a specific miked cab sound, then you need that specific cab anyway.

 

[brsanko]

Well I've read in several places that the fundamental frequency of the lowest string on a 5 string bass is at 30Hz so if one wants to reproduce that note they would need to go that low. I've found my driver though it'a an Eminence legend bp102 the specs say it goes down to 40Hz but the T/S parameters tell a different story. By "DI" I am assuming you mean direct in. So are you saying that in most recording environments they don use a bass cab at all? Wouldn't that then require the bass player to wear monioring headphones so he could hear himself play? Seems to me that would be a pain in the ***. I am totally inexperianced at recording but I'm learning fast.

 

[Brett]

Well I've read in several places that the fundamental frequency of the lowest string on a 5 string bass is at 30Hz so if one wants to reproduce that note they would need to go that low.

Low B is 30Hz, but if you look at the spectrum from a B, you'll find the fundamental is quite a bit lower than 2H and up. Most of the 'tone' comes from the harmonic spectrum, not the fundamental. You don't need a cab flat to 30Hz; many bassists use 4x10's and few of them have a -3dB point below 70Hz, no matter what the manufacyurers specs are.

30Hz flat onstage will equate to mud*. My 18" LF cab is tuned to 40Hz, but with the port blocked is 70Hz and often gives a better sound.
[

By "DI" I am assuming you mean direct in. So are you saying that in most recording environments they don use a bass cab at all? Wouldn't that then require the bass player to wear monioring headphones so he could hear himself play? Seems to me that would be a pain in the ***. I am totally inexperianced at recording but I'm learning fast.

Much bass is recorded soley through a DI or through a pre with a line out. Some people do use cabs to record through.

You're going to need monitoring cans to hear the other tracks you're recording to anyway. When I worked in a studio and did the bass parts for ads, I sat in the control room, plugged into a DI and the desk and played there using the monitors to hear both myself and the other tracks.

If you do mic up a cab in the studio, I find best results with a small cab and amp, so I can push it and get some distortion at lowish volumes. An Ampeg B15N would be a good candidate. Or DIY a small tube amp; 15W is usually plenty.

* I know you're talking about studio, just adding the points for reference.