Sounds like you're set then.
No a 24dB XO is not necessary. It is used for better tweeter power handling and better separation of the drivers. This is sometimes necessary as when you listen to 1000Hz from a 15" driver and 1000Hz from a 2" comp. on a horn, they sound quite different. If overlap doesn't bother you, proceed to the nearest woodworking station.
Good luck.
No a 24dB XO is not necessary. It is used for better tweeter power handling and better separation of the drivers. This is sometimes necessary as when you listen to 1000Hz from a 15" driver and 1000Hz from a 2" comp. on a horn, they sound quite different. If overlap doesn't bother you, proceed to the nearest woodworking station.
Good luck.
Sounds like a plan, and similar in basic concept to the Daniels system I linked. If you can scare up a small 100-200W/ch amp (depends on sensitivity of 2" drivers on those flares) and electronic xover, I'd still suggest going active*. The xover will cost less than some passives if you hunt around and pick it up secondhand, smae with smaller power PA amps. You'll also be able to much more easily select your xover freq and get it lower (if 24db/oct) because, as Daniels notes, getting the beamwidth right at the xover makes a difference in integration between direct radiators and horns. Fifteens shouldn't be run too high and CD's should ideally be crossed about an octave above the flare rate as the drivers start to do sonically annoying things below there. Getting this right can mean a large diference in intelligibility and minimise the mid/upper mid unpleasantmess inherent in a lot of compromised commercial 2 way designs.SPL King said:
The P Audio drivers look great: I have some C15-300 here, but unused ATM. Also remember that most 2" driver don't have much of use above 8k and a small choke can tame the shrillness of some drivers at the top end.
Are you able to provide specs on the 2" and flares?
* A 3 way xover will mean it's easier to integrate the 18's when you use them, and dialled out when not in use.
PS, another option is to buy some of Bill's designs and build from there.
I have some T39's and O10's being made for a friend. Not heard them yet, but if they sound OK, I'll probably get a similar rig for my bass.
www.billfitzmaurice.com
I have some T39's and O10's being made for a friend. Not heard them yet, but if they sound OK, I'll probably get a similar rig for my bass.
www.billfitzmaurice.com
p.audio challenger 15" 400 series
" my " ideal box volume for this driver x2 ideally is aprox 150 litres
859.7 x 531.3 x 328.4 internal dimensions
ports 2 x 100mm(dia) x 56 (len)mm
-3db is 55 hz
things to ponder
Is it worth mounting the horn in a seperate box? this would allow you to angle it and get good or better results in poor accoustic rooms.
close to 100 db per watt @ 1 meter, not bad, very loud!!!!
12db crossover at 1200 hz or higher at this stage, much later you may want to try electronic xo. Keep things flexable for room to move or evolve over the years
you will probably need to tame the horn any links for the info? spl?
oh is the compression driver 4 ohms?
" my " ideal box volume for this driver x2 ideally is aprox 150 litres
859.7 x 531.3 x 328.4 internal dimensions
ports 2 x 100mm(dia) x 56 (len)mm
-3db is 55 hz
things to ponder
Is it worth mounting the horn in a seperate box? this would allow you to angle it and get good or better results in poor accoustic rooms.
close to 100 db per watt @ 1 meter, not bad, very loud!!!!
12db crossover at 1200 hz or higher at this stage, much later you may want to try electronic xo. Keep things flexable for room to move or evolve over the years
you will probably need to tame the horn any links for the info? spl?
oh is the compression driver 4 ohms?
sorry correction for my above post 100db for 1 w @ 1 meter
MMMM Nice Idea, I have restored/ modernised quite a lot of Altec A4 s, A7 s and old JBL s and the results were exceptional. I have a lot of respect for the old components used. a sand filled lead lined altec horn from the 60's sounds every bit as good as modern horns. Vitavox drivers are so loud!! Many modern components also sound great in these super efficient horn loaded boxes with modern dampening materials added.
Cal off topic how do the A5 compare with the A7? I have never heard an A5.
MMMM Nice Idea, I have restored/ modernised quite a lot of Altec A4 s, A7 s and old JBL s and the results were exceptional. I have a lot of respect for the old components used. a sand filled lead lined altec horn from the 60's sounds every bit as good as modern horns. Vitavox drivers are so loud!! Many modern components also sound great in these super efficient horn loaded boxes with modern dampening materials added.
Cal off topic how do the A5 compare with the A7? I have never heard an A5.
Hello, here is the specs for the 2" driver:
Specifications:
Throat Diameter: 2in(50mm)
Mounting Type: Bolt-On
Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohm
D.C Resistance: 6.0 Ohm
Power Capacity: 100 Watt RMS
Sensitivity(1W/1M): 110 dB
Frequency Range: 500Hz-18KHz
Recommended Crossover: 1KHz or Higher(12dB/oct.minimum)
Diaphragm Material: Titanium
Voice Coil Diameter: 2.84 inch (72.2mm)
Voice Coil Former: Kapton
Voice Coil Material: Round&Ribbon Aluminium Wire
Flux Density: 1.8T
Magnet: Strontium Ferrite
Flares = Horns? Sorry Im not english by birth
Dont have specs for those at hand right now, belive they were 60 x 60 degrees, 15" by 15" and lowest frequenzy 500 Hz.
Specifications:
Throat Diameter: 2in(50mm)
Mounting Type: Bolt-On
Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohm
D.C Resistance: 6.0 Ohm
Power Capacity: 100 Watt RMS
Sensitivity(1W/1M): 110 dB
Frequency Range: 500Hz-18KHz
Recommended Crossover: 1KHz or Higher(12dB/oct.minimum)
Diaphragm Material: Titanium
Voice Coil Diameter: 2.84 inch (72.2mm)
Voice Coil Former: Kapton
Voice Coil Material: Round&Ribbon Aluminium Wire
Flux Density: 1.8T
Magnet: Strontium Ferrite
Flares = Horns? Sorry Im not english by birth
Dont have specs for those at hand right now, belive they were 60 x 60 degrees, 15" by 15" and lowest frequenzy 500 Hz.
SPL King said:
TBH I don't think you will get that from those drivers.
Try:
Single Eminence Omega pro 15" in 95ltrs tuned to 50Hz per side for bass
Active XO between bass and the mid/hi.
10" and a 1" mid-his with a passive crossover.
Its basically my 'small' rig. Fits in the boot of a hatchback car and will happily cover 100 capacity rooms with a fair loudness.
I wouldn't even think of using something like that with a passive crossover.
Ever heard a horn fed with 10 Watts ?? This definitely isn't SPL for casual listening anymore !!! If you fear high costs think about using some Hi-Fi amp for the horns (with precautions) in the beginning. This way you could achieve brutally loud SPLs. An active crossover shouldn't be that expensive either. If you don't mind the time you can even build one by yourself - it doesn't need witchcraft to do so.
But don't go passive, since this is terrible for Hi-Fi already and even more so for PA.
Regards
Charles
Ever heard a horn fed with 10 Watts ?? This definitely isn't SPL for casual listening anymore !!! If you fear high costs think about using some Hi-Fi amp for the horns (with precautions) in the beginning. This way you could achieve brutally loud SPLs. An active crossover shouldn't be that expensive either. If you don't mind the time you can even build one by yourself - it doesn't need witchcraft to do so.
But don't go passive, since this is terrible for Hi-Fi already and even more so for PA.
Regards
Charles
I have not used the 400 myself, but the 600 model P. Audio challenger is great value for money so I suspect the 400 is also very good, but you dont know until you try ect, I have heard a comparrison in horn loaded boxes (very unforgiving), side by side with the JBL 2226 and was very surprised how similar they sounded. The P. Audio did provide a very flat quality response at less than 1/2 the price. I personally dont feel that the extra money was worth the small improvement, though I still love the JBL .
The only thing to remember with 12db crossovers is the need to balance the components to the same ohms ie the system needs to be balanced, electronic xo is easy to mix different values and has other benifits.
The only thing to remember with 12db crossovers is the need to balance the components to the same ohms ie the system needs to be balanced, electronic xo is easy to mix different values and has other benifits.
Hmm, this is confusing. 
Im gonna summon up what Ive learned sofar, but I need answers to some more questions first.
1. If I would use a 3-way design with a cone driver for midrange, would a passive filter be more suited for that? Someone mentioned the diffrences between cone and horn sound and the need for the steep filter for that reason.
2. As I mentioned earlier I did build a couple of speakers before. The last project(my home speakers) started when I got a pair of almost new Gauss 12" bass drivers with 4.5" VC for free. Optimum box according to T/S parameters was like 37 liters. I put them in an 80 liter box instead, and tuned the port accordingly. On paper the driver has 95dB/1w/1m, so I bought drivers with matching efficency, An Audax 6.5" midrange driver, a Vifa 1" horn loaded textile dome and a ready made passive XO 800/3500Hz 500w rms. However when I started testlistening it was obvious I had to mute both midrange and treble alot. Cant rememer how much I attentuated them - probpably like 5 dB for the top and 3-4 dB for the mid.
Did my box alter the efficency of the bass? I know it has bad impedance at lower frequenzies - amps with too small power supplys sounds horrible with these speakers.
3. Will dual bass drivers give me anything other than 3 dB more?
I found this kit at a german website, Uses a craaft 8" for midrange, rcf 1" driver wit a horn and a choice of LF's. Passive XO.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pa/index.htm?/pa/bau_3weg.htm
Im gonna summon up what Ive learned sofar, but I need answers to some more questions first.
1. If I would use a 3-way design with a cone driver for midrange, would a passive filter be more suited for that? Someone mentioned the diffrences between cone and horn sound and the need for the steep filter for that reason.
2. As I mentioned earlier I did build a couple of speakers before. The last project(my home speakers) started when I got a pair of almost new Gauss 12" bass drivers with 4.5" VC for free. Optimum box according to T/S parameters was like 37 liters. I put them in an 80 liter box instead, and tuned the port accordingly. On paper the driver has 95dB/1w/1m, so I bought drivers with matching efficency, An Audax 6.5" midrange driver, a Vifa 1" horn loaded textile dome and a ready made passive XO 800/3500Hz 500w rms. However when I started testlistening it was obvious I had to mute both midrange and treble alot. Cant rememer how much I attentuated them - probpably like 5 dB for the top and 3-4 dB for the mid.
Did my box alter the efficency of the bass? I know it has bad impedance at lower frequenzies - amps with too small power supplys sounds horrible with these speakers.
3. Will dual bass drivers give me anything other than 3 dB more?
I found this kit at a german website, Uses a craaft 8" for midrange, rcf 1" driver wit a horn and a choice of LF's. Passive XO.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pa/index.htm?/pa/bau_3weg.htm
SPL King said:
You can use either type of filter. The 24dB active was recommended for the reasons you stated.
When you increase the volume you are dropping the Qts. The ideal figure is around .707. By dropping it below that your ears will tend to think there is less bass.
3dB, more power handling and less distortion.
You can use a passive filter for the mid/trebble in a 3 way system, it does not matter if you use cone or horn drivers, you can still use a passive crossover.
You don't need 24dB slopes with horn drivers, you just have to be careful with the crossover point selection.
Do not worry about matching drivers sensitivity. Most of the sensitivity figures quoted are deeply questionable or just plain wrong. The sensitivity changes when you put them in boxes so really its a factor to be largely ignored when picking a driver.
You don't need 24dB slopes with horn drivers, you just have to be careful with the crossover point selection.
Do not worry about matching drivers sensitivity. Most of the sensitivity figures quoted are deeply questionable or just plain wrong. The sensitivity changes when you put them in boxes so really its a factor to be largely ignored when picking a driver.
SPL king
A few points,
As you can see the crossover causes distortion, by using only one you reduce the possible problems and generally make life easier for yourself. It is easier to balance ect. Much better for a first project, once you master 2 way, you will be better prepaired for a 3.
I personally find that the midrange sounds more natural from a good 2" driver and flare/ horn combo than a cone.
3db is actually quite alot of additional sound, 2 drivers will help create a deeper bass, move more air, better control of directionality, and less distortion than using one driver.
For a 12 db passive crossovered system it may be better to use 2 x 16 ohm woofers wired in parrallel for a 8 ohm system. 6 ohm rating of compression driver, may mean its for a 8 ohms system?
Can anyone tell me if this is relevent or am I confused? (I have a hangover)
Electronic crossover the 2x 8ohm in parrallel is 4 ohms and even louder, mixing and matching impedience is another advantage for maximum SPL.
There are good and bad examples of both passive and active systems. Dont worry by keeping it simple, it will be easier to get right and impress your audience.
I have found that often systems evolve over time, these speakers Im sure will be appropriate for your needs for the moment, but later (perhaps years) a move to electronic XO would allow these very loud speakers to be even louder if needed. Also by then you will be experienced enough to notice the difference between drivers, xo points, passive/ electronic style. phaseing issues between drivers.
Anyway good luck with your project, you will recieve plenty of advice here to sort out issues as they come about.
A few points,
As you can see the crossover causes distortion, by using only one you reduce the possible problems and generally make life easier for yourself. It is easier to balance ect. Much better for a first project, once you master 2 way, you will be better prepaired for a 3.
I personally find that the midrange sounds more natural from a good 2" driver and flare/ horn combo than a cone.
3db is actually quite alot of additional sound, 2 drivers will help create a deeper bass, move more air, better control of directionality, and less distortion than using one driver.
For a 12 db passive crossovered system it may be better to use 2 x 16 ohm woofers wired in parrallel for a 8 ohm system. 6 ohm rating of compression driver, may mean its for a 8 ohms system?
Can anyone tell me if this is relevent or am I confused? (I have a hangover)
Electronic crossover the 2x 8ohm in parrallel is 4 ohms and even louder, mixing and matching impedience is another advantage for maximum SPL.
There are good and bad examples of both passive and active systems. Dont worry by keeping it simple, it will be easier to get right and impress your audience.
I have found that often systems evolve over time, these speakers Im sure will be appropriate for your needs for the moment, but later (perhaps years) a move to electronic XO would allow these very loud speakers to be even louder if needed. Also by then you will be experienced enough to notice the difference between drivers, xo points, passive/ electronic style. phaseing issues between drivers.
Anyway good luck with your project, you will recieve plenty of advice here to sort out issues as they come about.
yes you can crossover passive with different impedience, but if its not a 6 db crossover, well dont expect a great result. I personally dont like the sound of it, I have listened to the same system with electronic 24db / passive 6db / passive 12db phasing reversed. The first 2 sounded very good, 3rd not so good probably ok, that was with 4 ohms for woofer and 8 ohm 2 inch horn.
Personally I find a balanced 12db crossovers sounds very good and not a big compromise as many in this thread say, though to me non balanced 12db crossovers are compromised and electronic is the only option for first class high power sound this way in my experience.
Personally I find a balanced 12db crossovers sounds very good and not a big compromise as many in this thread say, though to me non balanced 12db crossovers are compromised and electronic is the only option for first class high power sound this way in my experience.
Hi,
I think maybe even small difference in impedance may affect sound of amp, even if its solid state
Also I think even tweeter sound better with a small RC
May I ask what you guys think of theese drivers ?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-420
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-510
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-235
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-310
I think maybe even small difference in impedance may affect sound of amp, even if its solid state
Also I think even tweeter sound better with a small RC
May I ask what you guys think of theese drivers ?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-420
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-510
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-235
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-310
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