No criticism. You are untitled to your views.
What you perceived as criticism was my attempt at clarifying the topic at hand, which you were not addressing and thus derailing the conversation.
gedlee said:
That's fair. Misunderstanding. Although, I would have appreciated you read the context before offering an opinion or asked for clarification. It would have helped what you perceived as personal criticism or suggestions of elitism.
gedlee said:
That's ok. That's what I interpreted as having better (or more pressing) things to do.
gedlee said:
But, if you have no data, funds or expertise to offer an opinion, then why do so in the first place?
Defending your own personal business practices? If so, I would suggest that when using a public forum as a commercial soapbox it would be wise to familiarize yourself with the topic before engaging.
My assumption was that a PhD in psychoacoustics and a business partner as an audiologist would be the closest thing to expertise the forum could hope for.
The data we have was in the links in the OP.
Regarding funds, I didn't realize by communicating I was asking to hire an audio consultant. This is a public forum where many give freely of their time. I'm certainly not clocking these hours.
You had time when it was to defend your own views and assumptions, but I'm sorry that if a topic doesn't have financial incentives for you here then a conversation is not worth engaging in. However, life does get busy, and I can understand a need to prioritize.
Either way, I appreciate your attempt at offering help.
I certainly do respect your credentials and value your input even though it was tangental to the conversation at hand. What I did not appreciate was your delivery, but such is life. We can disagree and still be considerate people to one another. Respect is multifaceted, and each is earned.
For example, I might listen intently and respectfully to you discuss driver time responses at a convention, but if you were rude to someone else in the audience it might make me want to reconsider attending a chat over coffee with you afterwards.
I'd prefer to not waste more time derailing, but rather get back to the OT.
Some further information:
Hypersensitive hearing of specific frequencies is often (but not always) associated with autism. A person is able to tolerate most sounds at normal levels, but certain frequencies are intolerable, especially above 70 decibels. For example, a person may have no difficulty being near a noisy dishwasher, but the higher frequency and higher decibel level of the vacuum cleaner will be painful.
Recruitment is directly related to sensorineural hearing loss. It is defined as an atypical growth in the perception of loudness. Hair cells in the inner ear typically “translate” sound waves into nerve signals. Damaged or dead hair cells cannot perceive sound, but at a certain decibel level, surrounding healthy hair cells are “recruited” to transmit, and the person experiences a sudden sharp increase in sound perception that can be shocking and painful.
- on the point I raised on dependence, and the importance of an approach of of descending auditory influence.
Headphones and earplugs offer instant comfort and relief. Noise-canceling headphones are the most effective, because they replace irritating environmental noise by producing calming white noise. Earplugs are usually made of either foam or wax, and it is worth trying both types to determine which is more comfortable.
However, most audiologists, physicians, therapists and educators recommend against frequent use of headphones and earplugs, because a person can quickly become dependent on them. In the long run, blocking out noise can reduce coping skills and increase social withdrawal.
- on the topic of retraining therapies, which superficially made the most sense to me.
Auditory Integration Therapy (AIT) is sometimes suggested to people with noise sensitivity, but there is very little peer-reviewed research published on the topic of AIT, and the existing research has generally not been favorable.
However, there is plenty of medical research on Tinnitus Retraining Therapy (TRT), which involves listening to broadband pink noise to habituate a person to ringing in the ears. Pink noise contains all audible frequencies, but with more power in the lower frequencies than in the higher frequencies. Most people report that pink noise sounds “flat.” Because of this, it helps to rebuild tolerance to sound.
Further information on Auditory Integration Therapy, which it seems has questionable efficacy although I’m unsure the differences or similarities to what I’m proposing.
Auditory integration training - Wikipedia
Guy Bérard's Audition Égale Comportement (English translation Hearing Equals Behavior[8]) was the first book about AIT. Annabel Stehli's The Sound of a Miracle told the story of the author's daughter, an autistic girl who received AIT treatment from Bérard.[9] The latter anecdotal book provided wide publicity to AIT in the English-speaking world. By 1994, over 10,000 U.S. children and adults had received training, at a cost of around US$1000 to US$1300 each, and AIT became a multimillion-dollar industry.[1]
Book info:
Autism: A Mislabeled Malady? : THE SOUND OF A MIRACLE: A Child's Triumph Over Autism, By Annabel Stehli . (Doubleday: $19.95; 256 pp.) - latimes
The Sound of a Miracle: Child's Triumph Over Autism: Annabel Stehli, Bernard Rimland: 9781857020328: Amazon.com: Books
AIT (Berard's method) was first developed in France in 1982.3 Berard postulated that abnormal sensitivity or insensitivity to certain frequencies of sound waves, regardless of overall hearing ability, was associated with a range of behaviour and learning problems,4 and that his technique of AIT would bring about a “re‐education” of the hearing process. The technique gained wide popularity after the publication of Stehli's book,5The sound of a miracle. A child's triumph over autism, which reported the complete recovery of her daughter, Georgie (diagnosed with autism and schizophrenia), after 10 h of training in Berard's clinic. AIT involves 10 h of listening to electronically modified music delivered by headphones during two half‐hour daily sessions over 10 days. The AIT device uses filtering to dampen peak frequencies to which the person is “hypersensitive”, and delivers sounds modulated by random dampening of high and low frequencies and intensities.4
Like I said I think most of this work predated widespread or low cost availability of DSP.
While this training regimen may not hold up to scientific scrutiny, I don’t think that means the approach is necessarily wrong but rather poorly realized at that time. Evidence to support this is in the large volume of noise control and sound adaptation methods which ARE accepted by the scientific community and are in more widespread use.
However it’s just conjecture on my part, of course. I was a bit baffled that AIT is not considered very effective.... until I looked a bit deeper into it and realized what I was imagining was a bit off from what this is in practice- a little snake oily from the looks of it.
It seems to me the bad press of AIT has turned into “throwing the baby out with the bath water” and has limited the amount of further research in this area.
Hypersensitive hearing of specific frequencies is often (but not always) associated with autism. A person is able to tolerate most sounds at normal levels, but certain frequencies are intolerable, especially above 70 decibels. For example, a person may have no difficulty being near a noisy dishwasher, but the higher frequency and higher decibel level of the vacuum cleaner will be painful.
Recruitment is directly related to sensorineural hearing loss. It is defined as an atypical growth in the perception of loudness. Hair cells in the inner ear typically “translate” sound waves into nerve signals. Damaged or dead hair cells cannot perceive sound, but at a certain decibel level, surrounding healthy hair cells are “recruited” to transmit, and the person experiences a sudden sharp increase in sound perception that can be shocking and painful.
- on the point I raised on dependence, and the importance of an approach of of descending auditory influence.
Headphones and earplugs offer instant comfort and relief. Noise-canceling headphones are the most effective, because they replace irritating environmental noise by producing calming white noise. Earplugs are usually made of either foam or wax, and it is worth trying both types to determine which is more comfortable.
However, most audiologists, physicians, therapists and educators recommend against frequent use of headphones and earplugs, because a person can quickly become dependent on them. In the long run, blocking out noise can reduce coping skills and increase social withdrawal.
- on the topic of retraining therapies, which superficially made the most sense to me.
Auditory Integration Therapy (AIT) is sometimes suggested to people with noise sensitivity, but there is very little peer-reviewed research published on the topic of AIT, and the existing research has generally not been favorable.
However, there is plenty of medical research on Tinnitus Retraining Therapy (TRT), which involves listening to broadband pink noise to habituate a person to ringing in the ears. Pink noise contains all audible frequencies, but with more power in the lower frequencies than in the higher frequencies. Most people report that pink noise sounds “flat.” Because of this, it helps to rebuild tolerance to sound.
Further information on Auditory Integration Therapy, which it seems has questionable efficacy although I’m unsure the differences or similarities to what I’m proposing.
Auditory integration training - Wikipedia
Guy Bérard's Audition Égale Comportement (English translation Hearing Equals Behavior[8]) was the first book about AIT. Annabel Stehli's The Sound of a Miracle told the story of the author's daughter, an autistic girl who received AIT treatment from Bérard.[9] The latter anecdotal book provided wide publicity to AIT in the English-speaking world. By 1994, over 10,000 U.S. children and adults had received training, at a cost of around US$1000 to US$1300 each, and AIT became a multimillion-dollar industry.[1]
Book info:
Autism: A Mislabeled Malady? : THE SOUND OF A MIRACLE: A Child's Triumph Over Autism, By Annabel Stehli . (Doubleday: $19.95; 256 pp.) - latimes
The Sound of a Miracle: Child's Triumph Over Autism: Annabel Stehli, Bernard Rimland: 9781857020328: Amazon.com: Books
AIT (Berard's method) was first developed in France in 1982.3 Berard postulated that abnormal sensitivity or insensitivity to certain frequencies of sound waves, regardless of overall hearing ability, was associated with a range of behaviour and learning problems,4 and that his technique of AIT would bring about a “re‐education” of the hearing process. The technique gained wide popularity after the publication of Stehli's book,5The sound of a miracle. A child's triumph over autism, which reported the complete recovery of her daughter, Georgie (diagnosed with autism and schizophrenia), after 10 h of training in Berard's clinic. AIT involves 10 h of listening to electronically modified music delivered by headphones during two half‐hour daily sessions over 10 days. The AIT device uses filtering to dampen peak frequencies to which the person is “hypersensitive”, and delivers sounds modulated by random dampening of high and low frequencies and intensities.4
Like I said I think most of this work predated widespread or low cost availability of DSP.
While this training regimen may not hold up to scientific scrutiny, I don’t think that means the approach is necessarily wrong but rather poorly realized at that time. Evidence to support this is in the large volume of noise control and sound adaptation methods which ARE accepted by the scientific community and are in more widespread use.
However it’s just conjecture on my part, of course. I was a bit baffled that AIT is not considered very effective.... until I looked a bit deeper into it and realized what I was imagining was a bit off from what this is in practice- a little snake oily from the looks of it.
It seems to me the bad press of AIT has turned into “throwing the baby out with the bath water” and has limited the amount of further research in this area.
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A review of the AIT devices and what they do:
(Most seem like overpriced equalizers with a set of Sennheisers?.... now I’m starting to see why the scientific community is sticking their noses up at this, reminds me of some of the marketing copy I see in audio mags)
AIT Devices, Berard AIT Devices, DAA, Digital Auditory Aerobics, Earducator, Audiokinetron, FST, Filtered Sound Training
Apparently these frequencies are of specific relevance:
125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 750Hz, 1000Hz, 1500Hz, 2000Hz, 3000Hz, 4000Hz, 6000Hz, 8000Hz
From their literature:
How Do The Devices Used For AIT Work?
A great variety of music was used with the original Audiokinetron, including jazz and reggae.
The AIT devices are a two stage device. It splits music into low and high frequencies, and into soft and loud amplitudes, sending them alternatively to the headphones.
The device randomizes loud and quiet sound levels and also low and high pitched sounds.
The first stage is a simple cuts only graphic equalizer that is designed to lower certain sound frequencies by forty decibels.
The second stage functions by taking music and creating from it a series of powerful, short duration, random, high frequency pulses.
Overall loudness is gradually increases during the 10 day Berard method AIT sessions.
As the participant listens to the music, the participant's auditory system is fed the accompanying pulses. At first, the hypersensitivity causes the brain to react. But by the time participant's brain overcomes the time delay, the pulse is gone.
The brain no longer has anything to defend against so it relaxes. Eventually the brain learns it is futile to either try to predict or respond to the short duration stimulus, so hyperactivity starts to diminish
——-
I tried getting access to the checklist, or the audio tests but checklist is either $25 or requires contacting AIT and test sound battery requires filling out the checklist to show a need.
Perhaps someone who is or has a child on the spectrum could inquire? They provide it for free if you contact with a request.
AIT Checklist
Listening Test, Berard AIT Audio Test, AIT Testing, Audio Tests
(Most seem like overpriced equalizers with a set of Sennheisers?.... now I’m starting to see why the scientific community is sticking their noses up at this, reminds me of some of the marketing copy I see in audio mags)
AIT Devices, Berard AIT Devices, DAA, Digital Auditory Aerobics, Earducator, Audiokinetron, FST, Filtered Sound Training
Apparently these frequencies are of specific relevance:
125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 750Hz, 1000Hz, 1500Hz, 2000Hz, 3000Hz, 4000Hz, 6000Hz, 8000Hz
From their literature:
How Do The Devices Used For AIT Work?
A great variety of music was used with the original Audiokinetron, including jazz and reggae.
The AIT devices are a two stage device. It splits music into low and high frequencies, and into soft and loud amplitudes, sending them alternatively to the headphones.
The device randomizes loud and quiet sound levels and also low and high pitched sounds.
The first stage is a simple cuts only graphic equalizer that is designed to lower certain sound frequencies by forty decibels.
The second stage functions by taking music and creating from it a series of powerful, short duration, random, high frequency pulses.
Overall loudness is gradually increases during the 10 day Berard method AIT sessions.
As the participant listens to the music, the participant's auditory system is fed the accompanying pulses. At first, the hypersensitivity causes the brain to react. But by the time participant's brain overcomes the time delay, the pulse is gone.
The brain no longer has anything to defend against so it relaxes. Eventually the brain learns it is futile to either try to predict or respond to the short duration stimulus, so hyperactivity starts to diminish
——-
I tried getting access to the checklist, or the audio tests but checklist is either $25 or requires contacting AIT and test sound battery requires filling out the checklist to show a need.
Perhaps someone who is or has a child on the spectrum could inquire? They provide it for free if you contact with a request.
AIT Checklist
Listening Test, Berard AIT Audio Test, AIT Testing, Audio Tests
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I would ( humbly ) revert to the origins of ( reproduced ) sound
No headphones 'cos they negate the travel in air of the sound (the decay etc. BUT mostly the human ability of ecolocalization )
No digital 'cos it puts the bricks to construct the sound, i.e. no direct information but pieces to make it.
Proposals ?
A turntable, some classic recordings
An amp... What about the amp ? Again, silly semiconductors might not be allowed
Speakers
Room
Placement
Etc.
No headphones 'cos they negate the travel in air of the sound (the decay etc. BUT mostly the human ability of ecolocalization )
No digital 'cos it puts the bricks to construct the sound, i.e. no direct information but pieces to make it.
Proposals ?
A turntable, some classic recordings
An amp... What about the amp ? Again, silly semiconductors might not be allowed
Speakers
Room
Placement
Etc.
I scored 39 out of 50 and apparently have 'significant autistic traits'.
Expected to be somewhere on the spectrum but not significantly!
Haven't worked my way through this thread but when it comes to music I have different issues with production/arrangements and when it comes to replay.
With reproduction what really, really gets my back up is distortion which always seemed to bother me much, much more than anybody else I know.
I've got these little speakers which I won't turn up because the distortion at middling volume annoys me. I don't know if others can't hear it or they can but it doesn't bother them.
With music production there are certain note sequences which are so annoying they make me feel almost physically uncomfortable.
Luckily they seem to be largely restricted to certain genres of music and jazz is by far the most prone to use them but they also appear in some Metal and Drum&Bass or whatever this stuff is called these days.
On the other hand there are ones I totally adore and those are frequently used in Funk but not exclusively by any means.
Basically there 8-12 note sequences a single instance of which can make or break an entire song for me.
Don't know if I added to the thread or just waffled.
I wonder how accurate that is? I know a few people with hearing damage who are very sensitive to loud, high pitched sounds. That always surprised me, thinking that - if you can't hear high frequencies, how do they bother you?
Human perception & reaction to sound is interesting & can expose or hint at the inner workings of our auditory perception just as audio illusions are used to probe these mechanisms.
I have an eight month old, grandson who is upset by the sound of wide sellotape being peeled off the roll - it's obviously a discordant note that he is not used to & unsure of but looking at his face it seems he perceives it on as threatening.
Don't know what this implies about our auditory perception but it might be interesting?
I have an eight month old, grandson who is upset by the sound of wide sellotape being peeled off the roll - it's obviously a discordant note that he is not used to & unsure of but looking at his face it seems he perceives it on as threatening.
Don't know what this implies about our auditory perception but it might be interesting?
Well I don't remember ever hearing about certain note sequences that are annoying. So that's interesting. Obviously, pleasing note sequences are highly researched and worth a good bit of money.
Don't get me wrong I am NOT talking about melodies.
Probably more little flourishes people throw in when they are improvising or soloing.
I believe it’s commonly accepted as fact.
Called “Recruitment”
Recruitment from Hearing Loss Explained
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